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Dáil

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take items Nos. 4, 5, 6, 14, 15, 7, 16, 8 and 17. It is also proposed that item No. 4 be taken without debate.

It is further proposed that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and that business shall be interrupted at 10 p.m. this evening.

It is further proposed that, at the conclusion of business today, the Dáil shall adjourn until 3 p.m. on Friday, 26 February 1988. Private Members' Business shall be No. 36.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Is it agreed to take item No. 4 without debate?

Comment on this

Agreed.

Comment on this

A Cheann Comhairle——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Deputy Quinn on item No. 4.

Comment on this

No, Sir, on item No. 45.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Deputy Quinn, I am putting a question in respect of the Order of Business. You may not interrupt unless it is relevant to that subject.

Comment on this

A Cheann Comhairle, I do not want to have a repetition of what happened yesterday. I am, as always, entirely in your hands.

Comment on this

Therefore, I should like you to indicate to me when it would be in order for me to raise the matter of the inclusion of item No. 45 before the Order of Business, in its amended form, is agreed by the House. Naturally I will abide by your ruling.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

It is a matter that cannot be moved in Government time. The Deputy will have to find some other ways or means of raising that matter.

Comment on this

I understand, Sir, that——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

If the Deputy is determined to disrupt the business of the House we might as well deal with it now and get it over with.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Might I suggest to Deputy Quinn, if it will assist him, that he might consult me in my office in respect of that matter.

Comment on this

I appreciate that offer, Sir, but, in accepting it I might draw your attention to the fact that there are seven sitting days only allowed within which this matter can be dealt with within the rules of this House——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

We have had this before, Deputy.

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It is for that reason that I am persisting today because the next and last day on which this matter can be legally raised is the day on which President Mitterrand will be here and I do not propose to disrupt the business of the House. Therefore, I am really at your mercy in relation to this matter. This is, in fact, the last day——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I am prepared to discuss the matter with the Deputy later today.

Comment on this

I want this House, Sir, to have an opportunity to exercise its democratic rights, to have an opportunity to annul this matter——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

The Chair is proceeding with the Order of Business, as is usual, this morning. I appeal to the Deputy not to disrupt it. I am prepared to assist him to the utmost of my ability if he will discuss the matter with me.

Comment on this

Naturally I will do that but I would suggest that between now and 10.50 a.m. this House will have to take a decision finally on this matter. When I propose to move the motion in my name and that of the remainder of my colleagues in the Labour Party I want to be in order unlike the position that attained yesterday when you deemed I was not. I think I am in order at this point in raising the matter and, within the practical——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Deputy, in fact you are not in order in raising it in this fashion.

Comment on this

Well, Sir——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I have tolerated your interventions.

Comment on this

I wish to raise it before you, Sir, deem the matter to be closed and that I am then late in so raising it. That is why I am not waiting.

Comment on this

On a point of order, might I seek clarification from you, Sir, on a very simple matter to avoid further acrimony in relation to the Order of Business, as has been listed? Everybody in this House wants RTE to cover the very important visit of His Excellency, President Francois Mitterrand, to this House. But are you not putting it to us that, if we agree to that, we have to agree to this entire package of succeeding listed items as well? It seems quite unfair.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I am putting three separate matters to the House. I shall be putting the matter to which the Deputy referred specifically to the House.

Comment on this

In separate votes?

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Separately.

Comment on this

Do I conclude therefore that, when those three separate items — which alter the normal Order of Business — have been agreed by this House, as presumably they will, an attempt to raise any other matter by way of motion would be deemed to be out of order?

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

The Deputy simply cannot move a Private Members' Motion in Government time.

Comment on this

Naturally I will accept your ruling on this matter but, if that is the case, we are engaged in some kind of democratic farce because the suggestion that this House can annul within seven sitting days the establishment of this unit is really a piece of democratic nonsense. Perhaps we should meet, sir, to tidy up the rules of this House with the assistance of the Taoiseach.

Comment on this

The Deputy did not do his business properly; he messed up his business; that is what happened.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Deputy Quinn, I want to assist you as best I can but I want to proceed with the Order of Business this morning. I take it, it is agreed to take item No. 4 without debate, that is, the broadcasting of Friday's joint sitting?

Comment on this

Agreed.

Comment on this

Agreed.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Is it further agreed that the House shall sit later than 9 p.m. this evening and that business shall be interrupted at 10 p.m. this evening? Agreed.

Is it further agreed that, at the conclusion of business today, the Dáil shall adjourn until 3 p.m. on Friday next?

Comment on this

Reluctantly.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Do I hear dissenting voices?

Comment on this
Deputies

Not agreed.

Comment on this
Division Carried

The Dáil divided: Tá,

Tá 70
·
Níl 16

Do you agree with this result?

On the Order of Business, I should like to ask the Taoiseach if he has come to a conclusion on the request I made yesterday that time be given to allow us to examine some aspect of the Garda inquiry into the shooting of Aidan McAnespie at Aughnacloy.

Comment on this

I have, yes. There are questions down to me which will be taken next Tuesday and I propose to make a fairly substantial statement in reply to those questions. The factors which influence me in that are, first of all, there is a meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference today in Dublin and I would like to wait until that has concluded before making a statement to the House because there may be up-to-date information that I can give, and, furthermore, other developments are expected today in regard to the matter.

Comment on this

I notice that, unfortunately, the Minister for Education has departed from the Chamber but I should like to ask the Taoiseach, and or the Minister for Education, to confirm that despite the solemn assurances given in the House to the Sisters of Mercy and to the public that Carysfort College would remain open as an education institution the Sisters have been forced to demand vacant possession of the college.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

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When the party opposite mislead the House and are in contempt of the House what channel do I have to raise that? It is extremely difficult for me to do so.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

There are ample avenues of approach for raising such matters.

Comment on this

On the Adjournment I should like to raise the threatened loss to the taxpayers of the education facilities at Carysfort College and the failure of the Minister for Education to provide alternative employment for the staff.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Comment on this

I should like to ask the Taoiseach if he is aware, as I am sure he is, of the proposed demolition by the Mater Hospital of three listed buildings in Eccles Street?

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Comment on this
Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O'Keeffe Fine Gael

I want to raise with the Taoiseach the question of An Bord Glas. Last year it was launched in a blaze of publicity and it was indicated that legislation would be introduced in connection with it. An interim board was set up. Apparently the main requirement for the board members was cumann membership. Nothing has happened since. Has the Minister accepted the logic whereby the functions of the board should be integrated with those of the new body or does he intend going ahead with legislation? If so, when?

Comment on this

We certainly intend to go ahead with legislation. If the Deputy looked at it reasonably and dispassionately he would agree with the procedure we are following. Pending the legislation, we have an interim board in place which is doing excellent work and it is on the basis of the experience of the working of that interim board that we can bring forward adequate and suitable legislation. It will almost certainly be introduced next session.

Comment on this
Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O'Keeffe Fine Gael

Do I take it the Taoiseach wants the present situation to continue before he comes to a final decision on whether legislation will be introduced?

Comment on this

The Deputy never listens to what I say to him. I said that legislation will almost certainly be introduced next session.

Comment on this

I seek further clarification of the Taoiseach's reply to Deputy Duke's question. There is unprecedented anxiety and concern about aspects of Anglo-Irish relations. Do I take it there will be an opportunity next week to discuss matters which are being dealt with by the Anglo-Irish Conference today and issues related to present tensions and difficulties? Will there be a series of statements which will afford the House an opportunity of expressing its concern at the trend of events?

Comment on this

The first step for me will be to deal with the questions and to give as much information as I can by way of a fairly substantive reply to those questions. Then we can see what happens after that.

Comment on this

May I ask——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

This must not lead to argument.

Comment on this

Will the release of the British soldier be an item appropriate for those discussions? Will the Order of Business next week facilitate that kind of discussion? These are matters of serious concern.

Comment on this

I would intend to try to cover all appropriate aspects.

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May I ask the Taoiseach when the Bill which has been causing problems between his Minister for Justice and his Minister for Defence will be published and brought before this House? I think it might trade under the name Shannon Estuarial Bill or a name to that effect.

Comment on this

The Minister for Defence is under close surveillance.

Comment on this

The legislation will almost certainly be brought forward next session.

Comment on this

A busy session.

Comment on this
Jim Mitchell Mr. J. Mitchell Fine Gael

When will we have copies of the Social Welfare Bill which the Taoiseach expects to be enacted before Easter? Is it intended to have more than one Social Welfare Bill? If so, when will legislation be introduced in relation to the transfer of disability payments to employers?

Comment on this

The Social Welfare Bill is imminent.

Comment on this
Jim Mitchell Mr. J. Mitchell Fine Gael

The Taoiseach said that three weeks ago.

Comment on this

I am not sure whether it will be today or tomorrow but it is a matter of hours rather than days. The other matter will very likely be brought forward, if not in this session certainly in the next session.

Comment on this
Jim Mitchell Mr. J. Mitchell Fine Gael

Do I take it from what the Taoiseach has said that the Government have abandoned their plan to transfer payment of disability benefit to employers in April?

Comment on this

No. The situation is still under active consideration. The Deputy understands that it is quite complex and I will let him have information as soon as possible.

Comment on this
Jim Mitchell Mr. J. Mitchell Fine Gael

Could I ask——

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

A number of Deputies are offering and I am anxious to facilitate them. No one Deputy can take up an unfair share of time. Deputy Seán Barrett is offering.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett Mr. S. Barrett Fine Gael

I wish to try again to raise on the Adjournment the problem at St. Brigid's School, Foxrock, in relation to the condition of the prefabricated buildings which are in a dangerous condition and to ask the Minister for Education when it is proposed to proceed with phase two of the new school in Cabinteely. I act on behalf of the Deputies in the constituency.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I am aware of the Deputy's concern and I will communicate with him on the matter.

Comment on this

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the working conditions of temporary staff employed on a seasonal basis in the Passport Office.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Comment on this
Mary Flaherty Miss Flaherty Fine Gael

I wish to raise a matter which I brought up yesterday with the Taoiseach and to which he failed to respond adequately. I asked when we would have the Children (Care and Protection) Bill before us and he replied that it was with the parliamentary draftsman. We accepted that as an adequate reply last November but three months later it is not adequate. Can he give any indication as to when the Government intend to bring this Bill before the House, given that other legislation has been passing it out at the rate of about one Bill per week?

Comment on this

I made the factual statement yesterday that the Bill is with the parliamentary draftsman and I have nothing further to add at this stage.

Comment on this

(Limerick East): When will the Finance Bill be published?

Comment on this

We hope to have the Bill published on Friday, 8 April and brought before the Dáil for Second Stage on 19 April and thereafter.

Comment on this

I refer to Item No. 24, the Building Control Bill. Having regard to the comments the Taoiseach has made about other legislation which it is hoped to have published and completed, it seems probable that it is not the Government's intention to take Committee Stage of this Bill during this session. If that is the case, will he again consider the possibility of setting up a special committee of the House to discuss this nonpolitical matter? It is essentially a technical matter. It has been going on for three or four years and there are severe difficulties in terms of interpretation between different local authorities in the application of by-laws. I urge the Taoiseach and the Minister for the Environment to consider setting up a select committee. On behalf of the Labour Party, I can say we would agree to a voting procedure which would in no way embarrass the Government of the day. That is not our intent. I know it is a worry in relation to committees.

Comment on this

The matter is being actively discussed by the Whips and I hope they will come to a conclusion as soon as possible.

Comment on this

I appreciate that. I spoke to my own Whip about it.

Comment on this

That is a help. I would point out to the Deputy that the procedure he followed this morning was in contradiction with what had been agreed with his Whip.

Comment on this

I am not so sure that it was.

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If the Fine Gael Whip abstains, is that all right?

Comment on this

Deputy Howlin cannot keep his word.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

There must be finality on this matter. I have afforded Deputy Quinn every opportunity.

Comment on this

Is it the Government's intention to take Committee Stage of this Bill during this session?

Comment on this

I have given the reply. The matter is being discussed with the Whips.

Comment on this
Jim Mitchell Mr. J. Mitchell Fine Gael

Has the Taoiseach a programme of sittings between now and Easter and is it planned to sit in the week of St. Patrick's Day and in Holy Week? It is necessary to know in order to ascertain what time is available for legislation.

Comment on this

The programme of business in this House is discussed between the Whips. Most of the Whips keep to the arrangements decided on between them. Sometimes it does not happen, unfortunately. Without taking from the prerogatives of the Whips, I think I can assure the Deputy that we will not sit on St. Patrick's Day.

Comment on this
Jim Mitchell Mr. J. Mitchell Fine Gael

What about that week? Will we be sitting on the Tuesday and Wednesday?

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

We must move on to the business of the day.

Comment on this

I have been seeking to raise for the last few weeks the matter of the killing of Palestinians by Israeli security forces.

Comment on this
Seán Treacy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

I am aware of that and I will communicate with the Deputy.

Comment on this