asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason his Department have discriminated against small farmers in receipt of unemployment assistance who are now debarred from entry into the Jobsearch scheme and who are consequently debarred from taking up employment in social employment schemes.

The Government decision initiating the national Jobsearch programme specifically provided that the programme be confined to persons on the live register. It also provided that the programme should have a substantial bias towards those longest on the register.

Smallholders do not form part of the live register and they are not, therefore, invited to participate in the programme. The objectives of the Jobsearch programme are the provision of help and support to the long term unemployed in particular, with emphasis being placed on securing suitable placements for as many as possible. Smallholders are not without work and there are good grounds for confining the programme to those who are actually without work and on the live register.

For the record I might perhaps mention that prior to the introduction of the Jobsearch programme, it was not the general practice to refer smallholders to the former National Manpower Service for consideration for social employment schemes. Referrals were made only at the request of the individual and I gather that the number requesting such a referral was always very small.

While the position is as I have stated, there will always be the possiblity of a small number of smallholders being placed on social employment schemes once this is not achieved at the expense of persons selected under the Jobsearch programme.

I thank the Minister for his reply. First, at least the matter has been clarified because there is a great deal of ambivalence between his Department and the Department of Labour, who are trying to ride two horses at the one time. They are trying to give the impression to the 14,000 small farmers who have no alternative but to draw unemployment assistance that on certain occasions they could be entitled to avail of the Jobsearch programme and on other occasions that they could not be. I ask the Minister a straight question. Does he consider this to be gross discrimination against 14,000 unemployed people, who would not be drawing unemployment assistance were it not for the fact that they have such a poor farm income? The Minister has said that persons on unemployment assistance were not referred to the National Manpwer Service but I have to disagree with him because on the application form there is a question on whether a person contacted their local National Manpower office. That question has been on the form for a number of years.

Could I dissuade the Deputy from arguing. Questions, please.

Have we clarified once and for all that all persons on unemployment assistance are not entitled to participate in Jobsearch? I disagree entirely with what the Minister has said about the transfer to Manpower.

I have stated the position with regard to smallholders who are on unemployment assistance because their position is different.

How different?

The Deputy raised the question of clarification. The question of clarification arose when a small number of smallholders who had been referred to the local National Manpower Service failed to take up the invitation to participate in a local social employment scheme. There were some objections to this because they had their work to do as smallholders.

They were not given a chance.

At that stage our local offices were told not to refer such persons to the National Manpower Service, except where the individual actually requested to be referred. That point was clarified at that time.

Is the Minister actually saying that smallholders who wanted to avail of Jobsearch could do so? Is the Minister now telling the House that his Department place an obstacle in their way?

The smallholders who want to have an opportunity which arises under the Jobsearch programme, such as the social employment scheme opportunities, can do so. These opportunities could be made available but the priority would go to the long-term unemployed.

Basically, the Minister is ruling them out.

In view of the fact that the arrangement whereby smallholders are in receipt of unemployment assistance mainly arises from their income from their smallholding, would it not be more appropriate to switch them to the family income supplement scheme? Secondly, is the Minister aware there are some 12,000 people, apart from smallholders, comprising 9,000 women and 3,000 men, who are debarred from social employment schemes? Although they are unemployed they qualify because they are on the unemployment register for sufficient time but they fail to get on social employment schemes because they are not actually in receipt of money from the labour exchange.

That is a different question. I take it the Deputy refers to people who are signing on for credits?

Yes.

Priority is given to the long-term unemployed who are seeking employment at the time.

The specific reply which I received by way of written reply from the Minister's Department last week stated there are 9,500 women and 3,100 men——

This is Question Time.

I appreciate that.

The Deputy is imparting information rather than seeking it.

There are 9,500 women and 3,100 men who are long-term unemployed, are signing on but are not receiving unemployment assistance because of means testing at home. They are excluded from social employment schemes.

I am sorry, Deputy, statements are not in order at Question Time. We must proceed by way of question.

Could the Minister indicate the numbers that have been placed to date on the Jobsearch scheme? Could he further indicate to the House whether one single permanent job has arisen out of Jobsearch investigations and interviews?

That is an entirely separate question. However, I can tell the Deputy over 5,000 actual jobs have come directly from the Jobsearch programme.

Purely temporary jobs.

Five thousand jobs.

How many permanent jobs?

How long is any job permanent nowadays? Yours, Deputy, and mine might not even be permanent. We are getting into a useless argument. These are the people, over 5,000, registered as employed.

Trimming bushes is not a permanent job. There has not been one permanent job created yet.

Arising from the Minister's reply to my former question, may I take it that the only reason the 14,000 small farmers on unemployment assistance are not allowed to avail of Jobsearch is that it will make the unemployment statistics look 14,000 better? It is a cynical exercise.

Frightening use of their situation.

I think the Deputy did not listen to the answer I gave. I pointed out that smallholders are not without work. The long-term unemployed are long term, over 12 months, without any work of any sort and without income of any sort. The smallholders are in a somewhat better position than that, even though I accept what the Deputy says that some of them may have very small incomes from their holdings.

They are drawing it from 25 years, not 12 months but 25 years.

They are in a different situation. As we go further with offering the options to the people who are long-term unemployed, it may become possible to offer them to others. It is a question of priorities.

Not one permanent job has arisen from the scheme.