asked the Minister for the Environment if he will consider funding, by way of grant-aid or a percentage payment from local authority rents, the National Association of Tenants Organisations, given that such funding is common practice in several other European countries; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

I have no such proposal.

I am amazed at the Minister's brief and grudging reply, particularly in view of the previous response in which he said that in regard to one of the major local authority housing areas, Ballymun, he is hopeful of better management and control. Would the Minister not agree that the best way to engender better management in local authorities is through a properly organised tenants' organisation representing interests and engendering a community spirit in local authorities? Is this not a matter the Minister should undertake as a priority objective in this Department?

As the Deputy knows, I had a very constructive meeting with the Ballymun task force recently. I would certainly like to be in a position to help out there.

Is the Minister aware that the tenants' association there is one of the mainstay organisations in the area? In regard to the Minister's indications of non-assistance to the National Association of Tenants Organisations and in view of the long history of Matt Larkin who has worked from the front room of his house in keeping that organisation together, am I to take it that the Minister's response indicates that in respect of section 24 of the Housing Bill, 1988, under which a number of organisations will be approved for funding who provide "information, advice or training or conducts research in relation to housing", NATO, the National Association of Tenants Organisations, are not one of those bodies that would come under the provisions of that section?

Quotations at Question Time are not in order.

The Deputy is quite right. NATO are not one of the bodies referred to as getting assistance in so far as providing advice to tenants is concerned.

Can the Minister say——

I want to accommodate Deputy Ruairí Quinn.

The Deputy is right in so far as rental income is concerned. It certainly is not sufficient to meet the management and maintenance costs of our rented stock. In 1986 rental income amounted to £39 million and management and maintenance costs amounted to £71 million. There was a shortfall of £32 million. It is hard for me to find money to come to the assistance of all bodies.

I bet the Minister is sorry now he reversed my policy in relation to rents.

These interruptions must cease.

It was the Deputy who caused all this trouble.

In relation to the original question and the first reply from the Minister, does he see any role for NATO in the context of the current Housing Bill, which is at Second Stage in the House, where he calls for improved standards of maintenance and self-management by residents and tenants' associations?

I do.

Does the Minister agree that in order for NATO to fulfil that role they need some form of financial assistance?

I am sorry but I have not got the money to accommodate the request.

In respect of the supplementary information which the Minister gave regarding the revenue and the cost of management, is he satisfied that the local authorities are honest in the way in which they compile the real cost of management and maintenance as against the revenue from rents? Is he satisfied they have not thrown in the kitchen sink and many other factors also? There is such an art as creative accountancy and I am sure the Minister is capable of discerning it. I put it to him that the figures could be double checked.

The Deputy is straying from the subject matter of this question.

I am satisfied that, whatever about the maintenance and management costs, they have not thrown in the capital cost into the cauldron as well. If they did, it would have been discovered that a new local authority house costs £71 a week compared to an average rent of £8 a week coming in.

May I ask a final question?

No. 12, Deputy Paddy Harte.

I wish to ask one final question.

Sorry, question No. 12 has been called.

I have introduced a new tenant purchase scheme which is very successful.

I wish to ask a very brief question.

The Deputy is very persistent. He may proceed.

In view of the reply the Minister has given to Deputy Quinn, perhaps he would consider again under section 24 the possibility of NATO being considered as one of those bodies? I would ask him to consider it before the next Stage of the Bill is debated.

I have written to NATO in regard to another matter and I am waiting their response.