asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement regarding the recent meeting which took place with ICTU indicating the matters discussed, the representations made by the Congress and the Government's response; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

I understand that the meeting to which the Deputy refers is the meeting of the Central Review Committee held on 26 October 1988. The committee, which is chaired by the Secretary of the Department of the Taoiseach, is comprised of representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Confederation of Irish Industry, the Federated Union of Employers, the Construction Industry Federation, the Irish Farmers' Association, the Irish Co-Operative Organisation Society, Macra na Feirme and representatives of the Departments of Finance, Agriculture and Food, Industry and Commerce and Labour.

The meeting of the committee held on 26 October was effectively devoted to a review of progress in the implementation of the employment measures set out in the Programme for National Recovery.

The committee heard representations from the Department of Industry and Commerce, the IDA, SFADCo and Udarás na Gaeltachta showing how the job targets in manufacturing industry and international services in the programme were being achieved. It was agreed that the committee would issue a detailed statement giving a sectoral breakdown of the new jobs being created in accordance with the programme and this will issue shortly.

May I ask the Tánaiste when this sectoral breakdown will be issued and the reason for the delay in issuing it? Did ICTU express their serious concern at the Government's failure to implement the Programme for National Recovery and their failure to provide the additional jobs, provided for the the agreement? Did they refer to the fact that so far this year there were 18,000 redundancies from existing employment coupled with emigration of 30,000 to 40,000, people who otherwise would have been seeking employment here? Were those matters discussed? If so, what was the Government's response to them?

We have always found the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to be very constructive in these discussions. Indeed, their participation in partnership with the other social partners and the relevant Departments has been a key element in achieving the very real progress that has been made by this Government in the past 18 months. As I have said, we will be issuing very shortly a sectoral breakdown of the new jobs that have been created. I understand the Minister for Industry and Commerce who, of course, has been very active, has been very successful in recent weeks and there will be further announcements forthcoming. By reason of our economic recovery and rectification of the finances, we have secured the economic environment to rectify the job situation. We take great pride in that achievement and all parties in the House will be hearing more about this shortly.

Did the Irish Congress of Trade Unions give their imprimatur to what the Tánaiste calls the "recovery in the economy", as evidenced by emigration of between 30,000 and 40,000 a year and 18,000 redundancies so far this year——

The Deputy is engaging in repetition.

I am trying to get an answer to the question. I asked what matters were raised by ICTU and the Government's response to them.

The Deputy has already put that point very effectively.

Yes, but the Tánaiste has not replied to it. I want to know whether Congress accept that it is in order for the economy and the so called Programme for National Recovery that 35,000 people are leaving the country per year and that there were 18,000 redundancies? Is that the economic climate that the Tánaiste would have us believe is doing so well?

First, I regard the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as being the legitimate voice of the workers of this country.

That is why I am trying to get an answer to the question.

The reason the Labour Party is where it is, is that it is not the legitimate voice of the workers and the labour movement of this country.

On a point of order——

That is just for starters. If the Deputy would let me finish——

Let us not have this plámás. Let the Tánaiste answer the question.

Order, I have called Deputy John Bruton. Deputy Taylor, please desist.

Would the Tánaiste ensure, in the sectoral breakdown he has promised, that information would be included of the sectoral breakdown of jobs that have been lost during the relevant period so that we can see the net increase or decrease in a particular sector rather than gross figures? Will the Tánaiste ensure also that the sectoral breakdown will also contain a reference to emigration, and in particular to graduate emigration, by sector to indicate the extent of the talent lost to the country during the period of the programme for so-called national recovery?

First, I will deal with the Deputy's last point. The economy has been recovering over the past 18 months. Any job losses and emigration losses germinated and were sustained during the previous Government's period in office. In the past 18 months in our Programme for National Recovery we have started to work with the legitimate representatives of the Irish trade union movement and with the workers of this country sitting in on these meetings——

They may have but what did they tell you?

One of the reasons the workers respect us is that we work through their representatives, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions——

How do you reconcile with that——

Very little heed is obviously being paid to the Labour Party by the workers.

Will the Tánaiste tear himself away from his romance with the Labour Party and answer the question I asked?

The Deputy had his own romance with the Labour Party.

They left his embrace very quickly.

Will the Tánaiste answer the question?

I answered Deputy Bruton's point initally when I stated very categorically that the figures he sought to advance for the numbers of job losses and emigration were all figures that had been accelerating over the period 1982-1987. In the past two years we have seen that trend reversed——

No.

——by the rectification of the public finances and by the co-operation of the trade union movement with the social partners in a Programme for Economic Recovery. In reply to another of Deputy Bruton's queries, we will have a full sectoral breakdown of jobs for his edification. I would like to refer to one other aspect——

Redundancies?

I was just about to deal with the question of redundancies.

The Deputy has come in from the cold. The number of redundancies referred to by Deputy Taylor as being of the order of 18,000 this year are, in fact, of the order of 7,700 in the manufacturing sector. Has Deputy FitzGerald got those figures?

There were 18,000 redundancies in the total economy.

There were not 18,000 redundancies, the figure being bandied around by Deputy Taylor, but 7,700. Jobs are increasing rapidly and recent indices indicate that we are pulling right out of the position under which this economy has laboured since 1982. We have pulled out of it because of our responsible attitude to public finances in the past 18 months and the creation of an economic environment to rectify the job situation. There will be further good news on this front, month in month out, over the years ahead——

We have been waiting for that.

——as long as we are here, which will be for the next three years.

How does the Tánaiste reconcile this curiously dramatic reply with the fact that his own publication in August shows that the level of employment stabilised after April 1985 until April 1987? Will he explain that? What the Tánaiste inherited from the previous Government was stable employment and the stabilisation of unemployment. That was two years before he got into power at all.

There have been figures since then.

The truth, for once.

The truth is the previous Taoiseach was looking at figures but the Government over which he supervised for some time was rapidly disappearing from under his tutelage. He had ample time to look at the figures during the dying months of that Government. We are not concerned about figures, we are concerned about action. We are implementing policies that will benefit this country in the future. On every possible index we are making progress and implementing the right policies.

Order, please, I want to dissuade Members from debating this matter now. We may not debate this matter now. A brief question from Deputy Noonan and then I am going on to another question.

(Limerick East): I listened with interest to the Tánaiste's reply——

Ceist, a Theachta.

(Limerick East): How does he reconcile his reply with the latest information supplied by the Central Statistics Office to his Government in the last quarterly survey which surveyed 80 per cent of manufacturing industry and got returns from them which shows a further decline of 3 per cent in jobs in manufacturing industry and an actual decline of 6,000 jobs and has stated categorically in the most recent information supplied to his Government——

The Deputy seems to be imparting information rather than seeking it. This is not in order.

(Limerick East): I think the Tánaiste is in need of an input of facts because he is talking nonsense. How do you reconcile it with the fact that the CSO are saying that the trend in jobs in manufacturing industry is sliding downwards?

We are not having questions.

That is another question the Tánaiste might answer.

(Limerick East): That is a question for the Tánaiste to answer.

I am going to answer that question very carefully.

We want answers. The Tánaiste is dealing with the people of Ireland.

I am dealing with the Deputy Michael Noonan who knows how to behave himself in a parliamentary manner.

Please, Deputy Taylor. These interruptions are becoming very disorderly and they must cease.

I am dealing with Deputy Michael Noonan whom I respect. Deputy Noonan said that the figure as quoted is not the most up to date. The most up-to-date figure we have arises out of a recent labour survey which states that there are 6,000 more at work in the economy now for the first time. At no stage ever was there such a high level of people at work as there is now and that is the important figure. As Deputy Noonan is well aware, it covers the whole range of industry, services and non-industrial employment.

Question No. 4, please. Deputy Proinsias De Rossa's question.

(Limerick East): May I ask a very brief supplementary question?

I am sorry, I have given the Deputy some latitude.

(Limerick East): On a point of order, the Tánaiste has imparted incorrect information. The CSO survey——

Please, Deputy Noonan, that is not a point of order.

(Limerick East): How do you base——

Question No. 4 has been called.

If you look at it fully the correct information regarding employment covers the whole spectrum of the economy.

Question No. 4.

That is the relevant figure and it is 13,000 up in regard to services.

I am consistently calling the next question.

Do not be sneering at kids who are working.

Let us get on to the next question.

We have no hope so long as that is the attitude but we will make hope ourselves.