asked the Minister for Defence if he favours putting in place an independent arbitration council whereby all members of the Defence Forces would have access to matters related to pay and conditions.

21.

asked the Minister for Defence the number of occasions on which the interdepartmental committee on pay, allowances and conditions for members of the Defence Forces has met so far; the date of the last meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

(Limerick West): I propose to take Questions Nos. 15 and 21 together.

The interdepartmental committee which was set up to examine and report on the pay, allowances and conditions of personnel of the Defence Forces have been meeting on a regular basis.

I do not propose to make any statement in the matter until the work of the committee has been completed.

The Minister did not make a reference to the question I asked — whether he would favour putting in place an independent arbitration council or a representative body where grievances can be brought by all ranks within the Defence Forces — from the top to the bottom. As the Minister is aware, at the moment there are certain sections in the Army — as Army spouses are quick to tell me and the Minister — whose voices are not being heard.

(Limerick West): As I said, the interdepartmental committee will examine what the Deputy has outlined. I repeat for the benefit of the Deputy the terms of reference of the interdepartmental committee: to examine and report on the pay, allowances and conditions of personnel in the Defence Forces; the committee will have particular regard to the question of retaining the services of those with special training or skills. I do not intend commenting on the points raised by the Deputy because they will be covered by the committee.

In view of the fact that this is a very urgent matter, can the Minister say when he expects to have the report from the interdepartmental committee?

(Limerick West): It is not my intention to force the committee to present the report before they are ready, because I would like them to examine this aspect in depth, but I hope the report will be available very shortly.

May I suggest that the present system of controlling the level of increases to the Army is governed by the negotiations conducted by the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and that a committee, directly representative of the trade union movement, indirectly negotiates on behalf of the Army? Will the Minister take this into consideration when the interdepartmental committee make their report?

(Limerick West): As I said the last day I answered questions, members of the Defence Forces have received the benefit of all general pay increases and appropriate grade or special increases which have applied to the public service.

No way.

(Limerick West): The last significant increase in pay and allowances over and above those payable to the Civil Service was awarded in 1979-80 when the following improvements took place: the introduction of military service allowances for junior officers, NCOs and privates to compensate for the general disabilities of military life, an increase in senior officers' pay and substantial increases in security type allowances.

Do I take it that until the interdepartmental committee report, and the Minister in turn reports to the Government and following their decision, there will be no pay increases for the Defence Forces?

(Limerick West): The report will be available shortly and the Government will immediately make the necessary decision on the recommendations in the report.

Can the Minister give an indication when that will be?

That was my supplementary. We need to have an indication when the interdepartmental report will be available, given the importance of this report which is very eagerly awaited because of the conditions which prevail in the Army where there is grave dissatisfaction about levels of pay.

I am still waiting for a supplementary question from Deputy O'Malley.

When was the interdepartmental committee established? How long does the Minister think it will be before they issue their report? Has he been in contact with them in the recent past to establish when their report might be available? Can he give an estimate when that report will be available in view of its importance?

(Limerick West): I am constantly in touch with the chairman of the committee and I expect this report will be available very shortly.

Before Christmas?

This body was set up six months ago to review Army pay. That report should be with us before Christmas because it is unfair to those unfortunate people——

I am anxious to faciliate the Deputy in eliciting information——

(Limerick West): I did not say the report would not be available before Christmas.

This committee has been meeting for six months——

(Limerick West): The committee was set up in June, that is not six months ago.

The man in the street knows what they have to get——

I am calling Question No. 16.