asked the Minister for the Environment the reason former staff members of An Foras Forbartha, who are now working with the environmental research unit of his Department, have been asked to sign pledges under the Official Secrets Act; if this is normal practice; the total number of staff in his Department who have been asked to sign these pledges; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

45.

asked the Minister for the Environment the reason former employees of An Foras Forbartha who were transferred to the environmental research unit of his Department have been required to sign pledges of secrecy under the Official Secrets Act, when no such requirement was imposed upon them when employed by An Foras Forbartha.

I propose to reply to Questions Nos. 6 and 45 together.

Neither the staff of the environmental research unit nor the staff of my Department were required to sign pledges of secrecy under the Official Secrets Act, 1963.

The Official Secrets Act, of course, applies to all persons and the staff of the unit were requested, on appointment, to acknowledge that they were aware that its provisions apply to them. In common with civil servants generally, all staff of my Department, on appointment, have been asked to indicate that they have read and noted the relevant circular letter setting out the obligations on civil servants in relation to official secrecy and integrity.

Is the Minister saying that all members of his Department are required to sign a written acknowledgment confirming they are aware of the terms of the Act and indicating that they are subject to its provisions? Will the Minister not agree that the staff of the new Environmental Research Unit were previously employed by An Foras Forbartha and were not subjected to such a requirement when they took up employment in that organisation? This is a new departure and represents an effort by the Minister to curtail the amount of information available to the public on matters of obviously grave public importance.

That is not true. The staff of the Environmental Research Unit were not required to sign pledges of secrecy under the Act. They were requested to acknowledge that the provisions of the Act applied to them in general.

That is the same thing.

This is in line with the practice under which civil servants are made aware of their obligations in this regard. I have a copy of the document here and the relevant sentence is: "I am also aware that the provisions of the Official Secrets Act, 1963, will apply to me." The Act applied in the very same way to those employed in An Foras Forbartha. There is absolutely no change in so far as that matter is concerned.

Can the Minister clarify the situation in relation to a person now working for the ERU who is not an established civil servant? Will he agree that previously members of the public had direct access to An Foras Forbartha in respect of environmental information? Is he now saying that the same rights of access which the public enjoyed in relation to environmental information obtained through An Foras Forbartha now obtain in relation to access of information currently contained in the Environmental Research Unit?

The rights in relation to environmental information will be the same. They will be entitled to published information. In fact in the very near future I will be making an announcement which will please the Deputy very much on the availability to the public of information in the ERU.

Therefore the position will remain the same. Why then did the Minister bother——

I am sorry, Deputy, but I am calling on Deputy Shatter.

The Deputy knows what the reason is.

There has been no saving.

It is working out very well.

Not at all, it is working out very well in so far as the giving of advice is concerned.

King Herod has blood on his hands.

The Deputy lost that one.

I did not.

Would the Minister confirm, other than reducing staff numbers in the Environmental Research Unit from what they were previously in An Foras Forbartha, that the only new element in the work being undertaken by the staff, who are still operating out of the same building, is that they have to sign an acknowledgment that they have read the Official Secrets Act? That is the only new element in relation to their employment since they were subsumed within the Department of the Environment.

They are doing no more nor no less than what their predecessors were obliged to do. All persons in the employment of the State have to sign such an acknowledgment. I have outlined what the relevant section is.

Is the Minister saying that such an acknowledgment was signed formerly by these people when they were members of the staff at An Foras Forbartha and, if so, why were they asked to sign one again?

This is leading to argument.

I am not saying that. What I am saying is that the Act applied to the members of the staff in An Foras Forbartha in the same way as it now applies to the members of the staff of the ERU. Can the Deputy not accept that? The relevant section is section 4 which outlines what the definition of official information is.

A Cheann Comhairle——

I am sorry, Deputy, but I am calling the next question in the name of Deputy Mervyn Taylor.

I have only been given one opportunity——

I have allowed a lot of latitude on this question. Question No. 7.

I merely wanted——

When I call the next question, Deputy, I expect to be obeyed.

I merely wished to ask if I could ask a supplementary question.

Deputy McCartan, please resume your seat. The Deputy can have no cause for complaint.