asked the Minister for Defence if he will give the total number of personnel who have applied to buy out during each of the past six months, broken down by rank and technical qualification.

11.

asked the Minister for Defence the number of Army personnel who have (a) applied for and (b) been granted buy out facilities in the past few months.

25.

asked the Minister for Defence the number of Army personnel who purchased their discharge from the Army in (a) 1986 (b) 1987 (c) 1988 and (d) for the month of January 1989.

30.

asked the Minister for Defence the number of all ranks in the Army, Navy and Air Corps who applied to leave in the last six months; and the number of such applications, in each case, which were refused.

(Limerick West): I propose to take Questions Nos. 10, 11, 25 and 30 together.

Since 1 August 1988 a total of 37 officers of the Permanent Defence Force applied to retire voluntarily as follows: Army, 16; Air Corps, 20; and Naval Service 1.

Of the Air Corps officers, 13 were refused permission to retire voluntarily while seven applications are still under consideration. All other applications for voluntary retirement were granted. One Army officer applied for and was granted permission to resign.

With regard to other ranks, a total of 490 personnel were discharged during the period 1 August 1988 to 31 January 1989. A man has the absolute right to a discharge on completion of his engagement or by purchase except during an emergency. The question of refusing applications for discharge under these headings does not therefore arise. Defence Force regulations also provide other grounds under which a man may seek his discharge, e.g. on compassionate grounds, but no record is maintained of any refusal to grant such discharges.

The total number of personnel who were discharged by purchase from the Permanent Defence Force in 1986, 1987 and 1988 was 137, 268 and 274 respectively. The corresponding figure for January 1989 was 13. In the last six months a total of 138 personnel were discharged by purchase. This figure includes two sergeants, 15 corporals and 121 privates.

One of the sergeants was a radar-radio mechanic, the other had no trade. The 15 corporals included four who had no trade, three electrical artificers, three engine room artificers, two radar-radio mechanics, one shipwright, one aero mechanic and one military policeman. Seventy-eight privates had no trade, the remainder were as follows: 15 aero mechanics, seven drivers, five fitters, four armourers, two carpenters, two electricians, one butcher, one draughtsman, one painter, one radio mechanic, one radio operator, one joiner, one mechanic — Naval Service — and one telegraphist.

I must admit that the Minister has blinded me with science. I cannot follow the figures at all.

(Limerick West): I will help the Deputy.

It appears to me that an awful lot of people are trying to get out of the Army despite the employment position outside.

During the past six months almost 500 personnel have been discharged from the Defence Force and I put it to the Minister that this is a serious haemorrhage of members and amounts to a substantial increase on previous years. Is this a source of concern for the Minister?

(Limerick West): Not really, at about 82 per month it is no greater nor no smaller than the average for the past number of years.

Could the Minister indicate in respect of the specific question tabled by Deputy Mac Giolla how many members have applied to buy out following the increase in the fees charged?

(Limerick West): I do not seem to have that information. Is the Deputy asking about the increase in fees charged for the processing of applications for discharge?

Yes.

(Limerick West): I do not have that information. That regulation was only signed in the past two weeks.

Given that the number of discharges for the past six months is no greater nor no smaller than the average for the past number of years, why did the Minister increase the fees charged for the processing of an application for discharge?

(Limerick West): The Deputy is a bit confused. When their engagement is completed, after three years or six years, quite a number of men disengage themselves.

The Minister increased the fees charged.

(Limerick West): The increase in fees does not apply to line personnel leaving the Army. The increase only applies to technicians.

Did I hear the Minister say that 13 members were refused permission to leave the Air Corps? Perhaps the Minister would elaborate further on his policy which keeps 13 members in the Air Corps who obviously do not wish to remain and indicate if it is conducive to having a contented workforce.

(Limerick West): There is an obligation on me to ensure that the service which operates out of Baldonnel operates effectively. I set up a special committee within my Department who have now reported and whose decisions are being implemented. I hope the situation which the Deputy has outlined will not continue.

Let me ask one quick question. Why at this time did the Minister see fit to increase the fees charged given that there was no increase in the fees for eight to ten years?

(Limerick West): Again, the Deputy does not have the information nor is he concerned with the facts. The last increase took place in 1981.

Eight years ago.

(Limerick West): An increase in the fees charged was one of the recommendations of the pay review committee set up by me last June.

The results of which you will publish.

It was because the Minister saw them leaving.

Order, please, Deputies, let us hear the Minister's reply.

(Limerick West): The increase in fees only applies to technicians, such as airport technicians and others, whose training could cost the State anything between £50,000 and £70,000. When a technician has completed his engagement he does not have to pay any charge if he wishes to leave.

Most unconvincing. I put it to the Minister that he increased the fees because they were leaving the Army as a result of poor pay and conditions and that this was the only block he could put in their way.

(Limerick West): As I have already told the Deputy, the increase in fees does not apply to line personnel who wish to discharge themselves from the Army. The increase applies only to technicians.

Question No. 13, please.

A Cheann Comhairle——

A brief question, please.

Would the Minister agree, because of the substantial reduction in the level of pay for apprentices, particularly in the craft and technical sectors, that it will now become virtually impossible to attract personnel for training in the Air Corps and the craft and technical sectors of the Army?

(Limerick West): I am not aware of any reduction in pay levels for technicians.

The Minister halved the level of pay for apprentices.

I am sorry. I have called the next question, Question No. 13 in the name of Deputy Molloy.

Has an answer been given to Question No. 12?

Question No. 12 has been disposed of.

13.

asked the Minister for Defence the number of Army personnel whose applications for discharge from the Army are currently before him; and the rank in each case.

20.

asked the Minister for Defence the number of members of the Defence Force who requested permission to leave in recent months.

(Limerick West): I propose to take Questions Nos. 13 and 20 together.

During the period 1 January to 31 December 1988 a total of 965 men were discharged from the Permanent Defence Force, an average of 80.4 per month. During the six months from 1 August 1988 to 31 January 1989 the total number of discharges was 490, giving an average of 81.7 per month.

A total of 192 men have recently applied for discharge broken down as follows:

In accordance with paragraph 39 (3) of Defence Force Regulations A. 11 a man who has been granted special leave prior to terminating his service in the Permanent Defence Force is permitted, before the time of expiry of such leave: (a) to extend the term of his original enlistment; (b) to re-engage to complete 21 years' service; or (c) to continue in service after 21 years' service. The period of such special leave will be deducted from any leave for which he may be eligible should he again apply to terminate his service with the Permanent Defence Force. For this reason, the number of men who have applied for discharge and who will actually avail of discharge is not certain.

Do I take it from the Minister's reply that 192 men have applied for discharge by purchase from the Army in recent times and that is the total number of applications that lie currently before the Minister? Would he accept that is a clear indication of the groundswell of dissatisfaction present in the Defence Force and the low morale which has caused so many men to reconsider their careers in the Defence Force? Does this large figure not give rise to grave concern to the Government about the continued effectiveness of our security forces if so many have applied to leave in such a short time, with the obvious rumblings of dissatisfaction we have heard on a regular basis over the last few months because of the pay and conditions?

(Limerick West): No, I do not accept that at all. The figures do not indicate that. For the Deputy's information, in November 85 left and last December 60 left. In January of this year 84 left, comprising one sergeant-major, one company sergeant, 12 sergeants, 11 corporals and 59 privates, eight of whom were recruits. The figures clearly indicate that, as I said, the personnel in the Army are as numerous now as when the Deputy was Minister for Defence.

I put it to the Minister that an unprecedented number of NCOs, 46, have applied for discharge by purchase. That is absolutely unprecedented in this Army.

(Limerick West): The question clearly asks the number of people who have requested permission to leave in recent months and I have given the information to the Deputy. The figures are clear. They are on record, and I can deal only in facts, not in fiction which the Deputy is dealing in.

Would the Minister agree that those 46 NCOs will represent a serious lack of important personnel in the security forces? It is most unreasonable of him to state that this is not a matter of concern when obviously it must be and certainly is to the senior officers in the Defence Forces who are experssing concern to us.

(Limerick West): I do not accept that. If there was concern there must have been concern when the Deputy was Minister——

(Limerick West):——or when Deputy Connaughton's Government were in office because the situation is the same now as it was then. The figures prove that and I have given the figures.

The spouses were not out on the streets.

(Limerick West): If the Deputy's Government had done something about the pay and conditions of the Defence Forces those women would not be on the streets now. We are doing something about it. His Government did nothing.

They were not on the streets.

I do not think it is a question of which Government did what, but of the facts. I know a little about the Army. I served 29——

Ceist, le do thoil, a Theachta.

I do not need to be preached at. The figures are there to prove that the number of troops leaving the Defence Forces is greater——

We must proceed by way of supplementary questions. The Deputy is making an assertion or a statement.

What will the Minister do to rectify a situation where more personnel are leaving the Army than are coming into it?

(Limerick West): The Deputy's party were part of the previous Government to whom I have just referred and they did damn all about it. The Deputy is expressing great concern now. As I have said, I am dealing in facts, not fiction.

The facts are there.

(Limerick West): I am not going to repeat the facts. I have given full information to the Deputy. I can do no more. If the Deputy cannot add that is not my problem.

The Minister did not answer the question which is whether he would agree that more personnel are going out of the Army than joining.

Question No. 14.

He is not answering any questions.

Not one.