asked the Minister for Education if, in view of her reply to Parliamentary Question No. 191 of 9 May 1989 which disclosed that the pupil-teacher ratio at primary and post-primary level in this country was one of the highest in Europe, she will indicate the plans she has for the reduction of the ratio; when it is expected that Ireland will reach the average figure of the other EC countries; and if she will make a statement on the matter.

127.

asked the Minister for Education the arrangements, if any, which she has made with a view to revising the teacher-pupil ratio from 1991 onwards to coincide with the fall in school numbers as indicated in the current population trends.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 and 127 together.

In accordance with the agreement reached by the Government with the INTO in negotiations under the Programme for National Recovery, the enrolment figures for appointment and retention of teachers in primary schools will be reduced by one unit at each level of the enrolment schedule with effect from 1 September 1990.

The Programme for Government provides that a continuing review of the pupil-teacher ratio at primary and post-primary levels will take place in consultation with the central review committee with regard to the feasibility of a further reduction under a new Programme for National Recovery.

I should add that I have specifically required the Primary Education Review Body to deal with the question of demographic trends and their implications in preparing their report.

The Minister's reply is most unsatisfactory. Would the Minister agree that the reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio is causing teaching difficulties as well as enormous disciplinary problems in certain schools in the Dublin area and in some schools that I know of in rural areas? Would the Minister agree that the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio at post-primary level, particularly in vocational schools, is causing enormous difficulty for practical subject training? Has the Minister addressed that question in conjunction with the Programme for National Development?

I agree with Deputy Mac Giolla that addressing the pupil-teacher ratio is an overriding consideration within the Department of Education and with the Government in general. Under the Programme for National Recovery we have already made arrangements, as I outlined in my earlier reply, and under the central review committee arrangements are in place with all the teacher unions whereby these issues can be addressed in a progressive way. I hope that talks which are due to commence again in the spring will prove satisfactory.

Surely the Minister recognises that this is not a matter between the Minister and the teacher unions and that the parents and pupils are involved. Why is the Minister not addressing them on the question?

First, I must put on record that the teachers' unions are not just concerned about themselves, but are also concerned about the pupils in their care. When they come to meet me or the Government, they constantly speak of the issues concerning pupils. I constantly meet Deputy Mac Giolla with members of the national parents council at primary and post-primary level. I also meet with the management bodies of primary schools, and of the vocational sector and the voluntary secondary sector. I meet regularly with the various bodies concerned with education. I am of the opinion, as is everybody, that the issue of the pupil-teacher ratio is going to be tackled and we have already started on that.

I now call Deputy Brian O'Shea, he has tabled a question on the subject and he is present in the House.