9 Mr. Ellis asked the Minister for Education if she will reduce the pupil teacher ratio for infant classes to 15 to 1; and if she will make a statement on the matter.

I am pleased to inform the Deputy that the pupil-teacher ratio for primary schools has improved substantially in recent years. The recorded pupil-teacher ratio in the 1990-91 school year was 26.6:1. The ratio for the current school year is 23.4:1 and the projected ratio for September 1995 is 22.9:1. These improvements have been made possible by retaining teaching posts which would otherwise have been lost because of declining pupil enrolments.

I propose to continue the policy of improving the pupil-teacher ratio. I am satisfied that this policy, with the emphasis on targeting resources on disadvantaged schools, represents the best and most equitable use of resources available to me. The most recent article brought to my attention suggests that money spent on pupil-teacher ratio in the classroom would be better spent on one to one tutoring.

Will the Minister agree that a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio to 15:1 would prevent many of the problems which arise in the national school system? In some cases children who have literacy problems are not identified until they are in third, fourth, fifth or even sixth class when they should have been identified in infant classes. It is obvious from those involved in remedial education that a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio to the numbers I suggested, would identify many of those problems quickly and would be of major benefit to the pupils concerned.

I share the Deputy's concern about the availability of remedial teachers. The pupil-teacher ratio is arrived at by dividing the total number of pupils enrolled by the number of teachers. There has been a policy of targeting resources at teachers as they become available and at the 700 teachers who have been retained in the system rather than reducing the class size although the maximum class numbers will be reduced in September to 35. Following the budget announcement no school in a disadvantaged area will have a class bigger than 29 as we will make additional teaching posts available to those schools. We have made a number of remedial teachers available. We target resources to tackle illiteracy problems, increase capitation grants, free books, grants to schools, teaching materials, technology and we could target more money towards improving school buildings. A decision has been taken to reduce class size. If the trend continues without further intervention the pupil-teacher ratio should be 20.2:1 by the year 2000.

Will the Minister accept the need to assess the literacy standing of pupils at first or second class and that this may be another way to alleviate problems which may arise at a later stage?

That suggestion must be considered. I have said already that it would be helpful to students experiencing difficulty if they had a good assessment, not only at the end of first class but at the end of fifth class so that their needs could be identified. We have put more psychologists into the school system because of the difficulty of having children assessed. Having identified the needs we must satisfy ourselves that we are able to supply the resources to meet their demands. There is a more detailed question on remedial teaching and there is more information which I will share with the Deputy.

How can the Minister reconcile a policy whereby children have to address themselves to large classes of 35 following the early start programme which has a pupil teacher ratio of 16:1?

The early start programme has been initiated in areas of greatest disadvantage. There is no class in an area of disadvantage with a higher number than 29. Communities of deprivation, with which I am familiar in Dublin, are getting small and it is unusual to have even that number of children in a classroom.

Will the Minister agree there should be an optimum pupil-teacher ratio? On an international league list showing the ratio of students to teachers we are at the bottom. From a list which includes North America, the Pacific area, the European Union, other OECD countries and Central and Eastern European States, only Turkey and perhaps Spain, is in a worse position. That should not be allowed to continue. Notwithstanding the improvement we are still at the end of that league and surely there should be more emphasis on reducing that ratio.

I would never suggest that I have sufficient resources for the education system. In allocating increased resources to the educational system one must always give consideration to the way they can best be used. In 1995 the eminent researcher Peter Mortimer, concluded that, having re-examined the evidence he produced in 1994, there was no guarantee that the results of research would favour smaller or larger classes while another eminent researcher, Wendy Berline suggested that the money required to reduce class size could be better spent. The Deputy has used international comparisons.

While everyone agrees that increased funding should be made available, we must be satisfied that it will be of benefit to students. The decisions about targets, the allocation of more resources to certain communities and children and the creation of greater links between parents and schools in some communities are based on up-to-date research. The research being conducted in Drumcondra is constantly available to me. I hope that before I leave office — I do not intend to stay that long — we will no longer be at the bottom of the table with Turkey. Given the demographic trends in the European Union, it is very easy for countries like Denmark to have a good pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools — the mortality rate in that country is higher than the birth rate. The latest research available to me suggests that by the year 2005 the Minister, whoever that may be——

Is the Minister thinking of giving up?

I will not be the Minister at that stage.

I hope the Minister is not thinking that she will be dead.

As I was saying, by the year 2005 the pupil-teacher ratio will be 18.5:1.

Are remedial teachers taken into account in computing the pupil-teacher ratio?

Remedial, resource and home-school community teachers are all taken into account. The figure is arrived at by dividing the number of pupils by the number of teachers.

In reply to a question I tabled sometime ago the Minister said that 500 teaching posts would be lost from next September because of demographic trends and the pupil-teacher ratio. It was subsequently announced in the budget that 300 of these posts would be retained within the system. I was concerned to learn of the alarming growth in one and two teacher national schools in rural areas. Will the Minister consider applying a 15:1 pupil-teacher ratio in infant classes in schools in rural areas——

That should be adequate, Deputy.

——as the loss of teachers has obvious implications for rural development?

I have not reduced the number of teaching posts. Rather I have taken demographic trends into account and retained those posts. If schools lose teachers then clearly there has been a reduction in development in those areas. The number of children from settled communities in infant classes has dropped within the past five years. We have retained the teaching posts and reassigned the teachers. When I took office the average class size was 39 while today it is 35. That is an indication that the position is improving.

The costs involved are interesting and it comes down to a matter of choice. A one unit improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio for primary schools would cost approximately £16 million per annum. Given our educational system and that our demographic trend is now similar to that in Europe there will be a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio to 18:1 by the year 2005. However, even at that stage I will not be happy unless additional resources are targeted towards those students who need extra help.

Obviously we all welcome the Minister's concern for children in socially deprived areas. Will she agree that illiteracy is a major problem in schools? As Deputy Ellis said, socially deprived schools merit special attention. Will the Minister outline her philosophy for the reduction of the pupil-teacher ratio over the next three years? Does she intend to focus on infant classes with a view to significantly reducing the pupil-teacher ratio?

It has been my policy to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in infant classes in disadvantaged areas. Last year no infant class pupil-teacher ratio exceeded 29:1 and this ratio has now been extended across all classes. There is a commitment in the Programme for Government to continue the improvements in the pupil-teacher ratio.

Will the Minister set specific targets?

I would be concerned to learn that we were in the same position as Turkey on any international list.

The birth rate has been falling.

Yes, it has but I have retained the teaching posts and reassigned the teachers as resource, remedial and home-school liaison teachers. Resource and home-school liaison teachers are being appointed to schools which require extra assistance.

I call Question No. 10.

May I ask a supplementary question? I feel I am entitled to ask a further supplementary question.

Adequate time has been spent on this question. The Deputy should resume his seat. I have called Question No. 10.

I gave way to other Deputies in the belief——

An inordinate amount of time has been spent on this question.