The Order of Business today shall be as follows No. 15a, motion re the appointment of ordinary Members to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission; No. 15b, motion re the referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a draft Council decision concerning the signature of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Iceland and the Kingdom of Norway; No. 5a, Road Traffic Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 2, European Communities (Amendment) Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Second and Subsequent Stages and No. 4a, Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 7.30 p.m.; (2) Nos. 15a and 15b shall be decided without debate; (3) the following arrangements shall apply to No. 5a: (i) the proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 65 minutes; the opening speech of the Minister for Transport and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; Members may share time; and the Minister for Transport shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; (ii) the proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 25 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Transport; (4) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 2: the proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 2.30 p.m.; the opening speech of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes; Members may share time; a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Foreign Affairs; (5) the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m., there shall be no Order of Business within the meaning of Standing Orders 26(2) and 26(3), the taking of any divisions shall be postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday, 2 December 2003, and accordingly, the following business shall be transacted in the following order: No. 4a, Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Second Stage (resumed), which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 2.30 p.m.; and No. 23, Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Second Stage (resumed), which shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 4 p.m.

There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to?

I wish to speak about No. 15a.

We will come to that. We are dealing with the first proposal on the late sitting.

I propose an amendment, that the business should be interrupted not later than 8.30 p.m. for the purposes of allowing the Minister for Finance to make a statement on changes in the Estimates to cater for 5,000 extra jobs in community employment schemes in respect of which the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, received a standing ovation as a result of 40 signatures having been placed before the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting. It would be in the interest of the country to know what is going on.

We can give him another standing ovation.

I welcome the Minister for Finance. Clearly the Government is running out of Ministers it can trust on the Order of Business, the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Agriculture and Food having made a hames of it in successive weeks.

The Minister for Transport is next.

I oppose the late sitting, as I believe it is an insufficient provision to carry out the business of this House. What is required is serious and meaningful Dáil reform. Of the 22 Bills promised, only three have been produced so far. The specific matter raised by Deputy Kenny has the support of the Labour Party. The Minister for Finance, who is considered to be wrong by the Minister of State responsible for community employment, should take part in a debate in the House. We will be happy to facilitate the 40 Fianna Fáil backbenchers—

There is no need.

—and give them whatever support we can in restoring the 5,000 places and undoing the damage that has been done to community employment. Rather than dividing the House, will the Minister agree to an extension of time to permit us—

Obviously Deputy Keaveney believes that, at the rate the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, is sinking her career, she is in line for promotion.

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to continue without interruption.

Rather than dividing the House, will the Minister provide time tonight to discuss the important matter that is tearing the heart out of disadvantaged communities, namely, the disgraceful cuts that have been made in community employment about which his own colleagues profess to be so concerned after the event? We should have an opportunity tonight to undo the damage before budget day.

Hear, hear.

The Green Party welcomes the acceptance by the Government of the concept of a rotating Taoiseach. We support the proposal by Deputy Kenny that the House should sit longer to have a debate on the effect of community employment cuts and the need to reverse those cuts. The length and detail of today's Order of Business is a damning testament of how badly the work of the House is being ordered and, on those grounds alone, as an Opposition we must challenge on a regular basis what the Government proposes on the Order of Business.

I welcome the Minister of Finance to the Taoiseach's chair. I wonder if this is part of the agenda he discussed briefly with the Minister for Defence in a private meeting. This is a position the Minister for Defence has occupied on previous Thursdays. Regardless of the detail of that, we see in this morning's newspapers that the arrogance of the Minister for Finance knows no bounds.

We are discussing the proposal on the late sitting.

He thinks more of thoroughbreds than he does of the poor and needy in society.

Deputy Ó Caoláin should come back to the issue.

I see the rejection of appeals from his party colleagues and others here on—

We are discussing the late sitting.

I am discussing the same matter as every other Deputy who has spoken.

You will have to resume your seat if you do not discuss the issue before the House.

The community employment scheme requires urgent address in this Chamber and we presume that the statement of the 40 Fianna Fáil Members was an honest one and not just a smokescreen for public consumption purposes. If that was their position—

You have made your point. You will have to find another way of having a debate on the issue.

—they should support the appeal for extended time this evening to address this matter. We oppose the proposition for the extra time on the basis that it is inadequate and does not give the opportunity to the House to debate this important and pressing matter.

Adequate time was given to the debate on the Estimates last week. All Members had the opportunity to speak to the Estimates for 2004.

Fianna Fáil Members have changed their minds.

At least the Fianna Fáil Party has 40 backbenchers to talk about.

"That the figure proposed to be deleted stand."

Tá

Tá– continued

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15a and No. 15b, motion re the appointment of ordinary Members to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, agreed?

While I welcome the establishment of the commission, the important work it must undertake is grounds for the provision by Government of an opportunity to debate the matter early in the next term. Many matters arising from the establishment of the commission are relevant to the way in which we do our business and the functioning of the Oireachtas. Responsibility for these issues will rest with the commission. It would be useful to have an opportunity for debate as soon as the Members being nominated today have had a chance to consider the future direction of the Houses of the Oireachtas. Deputy Howlin will represent the Labour Party.

While I welcome the setting up of the commission and the involvement in it of Members, the Green Party must oppose the proposal before us. We do not do so because of the people who have been nominated.

It is because it is the Green Party.

We feel there is a need for debate on this issue. The four nominees from this House represent specified political groupings, which means 22 Members will not have direct access to the workings of the commission. This does not represent a positive beginning to the commission in terms of how it should operate. There should be a debate on the matter in the House and the Green Party would welcome the opportunity to participate in it.

While the legislation to establish the commission was being processed by the House, I tabled an amendment to extend the membership, but it was ruled out of order.

We cannot go back through the legislation again. The House approved it and it is now the law of the land.

An opportunity to extend the membership was not provided.

The Deputy will have to find another way of raising the matter. It cannot be raised at this time.

This is a difficulty which should be overcome.

We are not having a debate on the legislation.

That is fair enough.

While I wish Deputies Killeen, Howlin, Paul McGrath and O'Donnell, and the two Senators who join them on the six-person commission, well in their work, I must highlight the fact, as did Deputy Boyle, that 22 Deputies will not be represented on the basis of the proposed configuration. I voiced this on Committee Stage and in the House. I sought to amend the legislation but was unsuccessful as the Ceann Comhairle pointed out. Even at this late stage, it is important that the members of the commission and the Ceann Comhairle address this matter.

We cannot go back through the legislation again.

It is a disgrace and it is undemocratic.

There is clearly a lack of equity in the representation and compilation of the commission. From day one, the approach has been flawed.

The Deputy has made his point.

While the Technical Group constitutes the second largest numerical representation of Opposition voices, it has no voice on the commission. Accordingly and regrettably, I must object once again.

The Deputy has made his point. We shall put the question unless the Minister wishes to speak.

The Minister should explain our exclusion.

There was an adequate debate on the legislation when it was passing through both Houses of the Oireachtas. A large amount of time was given to its discussion on Committee Stage and the Houses enacted it. The legislation has been sought for a long number of years. It represents a radical step in the running of the Oireachtas. The dead hand of the Department of Finance is being removed and a commission of Members will decide how resources will be allocated. It is a very progressive step.

I wish the Members who have been nominated by their respective parties well. It will be their job to make decisions rather than blaming other people.

It is a divvy up.

There is no representation for 22 Deputies.

I wish the commission well in making difficult decisions on the allocation of resources to committees and other areas. I am sure they are greatly looking forward to it.

Deputy Rabbitte proposed that a discussion on the commission's operation should take place in the new year. I have no problem with that proposal and a debate could take place in committee or elsewhere. The commission represents a radical step and we will observe its operation over the next three years, which is the length of time for which money has been allocated

It is political exclusion.

The Technical Group should get more Deputies next time.

The Minister, without interruption.

The legislation was debated adequately on Committee Stage.

As a teller in the previous electronic vote and under Standing Orders, I reserve the right to call for a vote other than by electronic means.

As a teller, Deputy Boyle is entitled under Standing Order 69 to call for a vote through the lobby.

There was a mobile phone used in the House by Deputy Boyle during the non-voting session. Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle will remind him of the rules.

All Members should be well aware that it is not appropriate even to bring a mobile phone into the Chamber, let alone use it. This applies to all Deputies.

Let me inform Deputy Davern that I did not use my mobile phone.

The Deputy must have been talking to himself so.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5a, Road Traffic Bill 2003, agreed to?

I asked him to give up Shergar.

There will be no mobile phones in a democracy. Twenty-six Deputies will be excluded.

Deputy Kenny is entitled to be heard without interruption.

I oppose on a regular basis the guillotining of Bills and do so again on this occasion.

I too record my opposition to the use of the guillotine.

I support the view of Deputy Kenny.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 2, European Communities (Amendment) Bill 2003 [Seanad] agreed to?

A guillotine is being unnecessarily imposed when the matter could be debated in the House in the limited speaking slots now available. It is undesirable from a democratic and parliamentary point of view that these Bills should be guillotined in this manner.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5, the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow, agreed to?

It is important to record that this practice avoids real Dáil reform. It is a cosmetic measure to introduce a day's sitting when there is no Order of Business, no Question Time, no Adjournment and no Leaders' Questions. It is purely a device to give the appearance that the House is engaged in a normal sitting. It is not a normal sitting in a House that has been promised 22 Bills while only three have been published.

There is a fundamental necessity to reorganise the way we do business. All the Opposition parties have made proposals to the Government Whip but all we have got is window dressing in the form of Dáil Éireann being convened in this hollow fashion where Ministers do not have to present in the House. Opposition Deputies are expected to be satisfied with that. The people are not satisfied.

A number of pressing issues await attention. The Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Fahey, raised one this morning which has significant implications for the constitutional imperative of collective Cabinet responsibility. It is not just 40 backbenchers who are rebelling against the Government. The Minister for Finance boasts, and it is a fair boast—

We cannot have a debate on that issue at this stage.

I agree. I want to record that the Minister for Finance's boast, that at least he has 40 backbenchers, is fair but at the rate he is going he will not have them for long unless he makes some change in the community employment scheme.

The Deputy will have to find another way of raising the issue.

I support Deputy Rabbitte on this. This procedure allows the Government to keep the House going with a skeleton crew. God knows there are a lot of old bones being rattled on the Government benches these days.

Not only is the proposal for Friday's business unacceptable, but what is being proposed to be ordered on Friday is unacceptable. The two Bills are to be guillotined at the end of Second Stage. Both are Bills in which many Members have considerable interest and on which they may wish to have a vote as and when the debate occurs. On these grounds, the Government's proposals must be opposed by us.

On the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill in particular, this will commence Second Stage here later today and be guillotined at 2.30 p.m. tomorrow afternoon. Debate on this hugely important and welcome legislation should accommodate the input of Members. I appeal to the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, to recognise the importance of the legislation. While the debate may conclude at that time tomorrow, Second Stage should not. Is it possible to leave the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill 2003 open to be revisited in the coming week so that more Deputies will have the opportunity to participate? This is a reasonable request.

Can we separate them? Does the Minister agree with the point that has been made about No. 4a?

We will hear the Minister on the issues that have been raised by Deputies Rabbitte, Kenny, Boyle and Ó Caoláin.

This Bill has been coat-trailed for six years. It has finally come to the House, but a minimal number of hours are being allowed on Second Stage. Many interests are concerned about this Bill.

Sorry, Deputy, you have made your contribution.

I find it difficult to distinguish between the two items.

Under Standing Orders, you are not entitled to make a second contribution.

We find it difficult to distinguish between the two Labour parties.

I ask the Minister to distinguish between the two items.

Allow the Minister to respond.

The phenomenon of looking for additional time to debate Bills, but then calling a vote on the Government's proposal to allot time to them, is a recurring theme on the Opposition side each week. It is becoming somewhat farcical. It elevates the Opposition's normal high standards of hypocrisy to stratospheric levels.

It is sanitised.

We will sit on four Fridays before Christmas.

Then the Government plans to take five weeks off.

We sat on five Fridays before the end of the last session. It is normal to sit on Fridays when trying to enact legislation. The Government is trying to accommodate the Opposition, which is always looking for additional time. The Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill 2003 will be debated for about three hours today and about four hours tomorrow. The average Second Stage debate is of similar length.

When is it proposed to bring the—

Can we have silence for Deputy Kenny, please?

I understand that the Tánaiste wants to leave the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Is the Government contemplating introducing legislation to cater for that situation before a formal Cabinet reshuffle? Second, can the Minister for Finance confirm reports that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, is to be appointed to intervene in the warring factions within the Fianna Fáil Party? Third, can I ask the Minister—

The Deputy is being frivolous. It is an abuse of the Order of Business to ask questions that he knows are in no way related to Standing Order 26(a).

When will we see the major infrastructure Bill—

Has Deputy Kenny a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

—dealing with major projects of national importance? The Taoiseach has referred to it here on several occasions over the last few months.

The heads of the infrastructure Bill are expected later this year, and the Bill is to be enacted some time next year.

I wish to ask the Minister for Finance about the Social Welfare Bill in the context of the remarks this morning from the Crisis Pregnancy Agency. That State body has expressed concern about the rent supplement—

I am sorry, Deputy. I call the Minister on the Social Welfare Bill.

—and the implications that it is likely to have on many young women.

We cannot discuss what the Deputy might like to say on Second Stage of the Bill.

I had thought the Minister for Finance—

The issue has been raised this week already and replied to.

Indeed it has, but it has not been changed, and we do not often get the Minister for Finance in the House. He has an opportunity now to indicate that—

I am sorry, Deputy, but the Chair will rule the Minister out of order if he goes beyond answering the question in accordance with Standing Order 26(a).

He has an opportunity to respond to the case made by Olive Braiden this morning. It is a very important and delicate matter.

I call the Minister on the legislation.

The annual Bill to provide for social welfare increases will be before Christmas.

Does the Government have any plans for legislation that would introduce time limits and prohibitions on members of the public sector subsequently benefiting from Government contracts?

Is legislation promised?

No.

No legislation is promised.

The Minister will be aware that, following the Fischler proposals, many jobs in agriculture are under threat. Will he consider introducing a few innovative proposals for the agricultural community—

The question is not whether he has legislation in mind, Deputy, but whether it is promised.

—particularly regarding land leasing and disease levies?

No legislation is promised.

When can we expect to see the Finance Bill?

We will see it in 2004.

What is the status of No. 27 on the Government list, the electricity Bill, which is effectively to convert the ESB into a public limited company – the privatisation of the ESB? In view of the Taoiseach's statement that there are to be no more privatisations, has the Bill been dropped?

The heads of the electricity Bill were approved by the Government in April 2002, and the publication date for the legislation is early 2004.

I am delighted the Minister for Finance is here. Are there proposals for legislation on decentralisation, and does one need legislation for it? The Minister promised it on several occasions, and many towns, including my own—

It is neither needed nor promised.

No legislation is promised.

What about decentralisation?

I am sorry, Deputy.

On the A list, the Minister for Finance has the annual Bill to give statutory effect to the 2003 Estimates. As an alternative to savaging community employment schemes, will he force the tax exiles to cough up in this year's budget?

Has the Deputy a question on legislation?

Yes, it is on the legislation. It is No. 9.

What is the name of the legislation?

It is the Appropriation Bill, and I want the tax exiles' millions appropriated so that the—

I call the Minister on the Appropriation Bill.

By tradition, the Appropriation Bill is usually one of the last Bills passed by the House in any year, and it will be the same this year.

What about the stallions and the tax exiles?

Since it is appropriate for the Minister for Finance to take the Order of Business this morning, will he consider introducing an amendment to the Finance Acts to facilitate the 40 Fianna Fáil prisoners of conscience who find themselves unable to express themselves in the ordinary way and have sought refuge at the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party?

That does not arise now. The Minister for Finance has said that the Finance Bill will come before the House in 2004, and the Deputy will have an opportunity to submit amendments.

Might it be possible to make an exception to enable them to have a free vote next Wednesday so they could give some sustenance to their consciences?

The Deputy is out of order. He will have an opportunity to speak on the matter when the Finance Bill comes before the House.

The day before yesterday, the Minister for Finance told me that the Revenue Commissioners are unable to say how many people are non-resident for tax purposes.

Has the Deputy a question on legislation? Perhaps she might come to the legislation. It is now 11.45 a.m. and we have been here for an hour and a quarter.

How many people are non-resident for tax purposes in this country? Will the Minister address our extraordinary lax non-resident laws in the Appropriation Bill or the Finance Bill?

We cannot go on debating issues that are not appropriate.

When will the proceeds of corruption Bill be brought before the House?

I understand that those amendments will be taken as part of the Proceeds of Crime Bill.