I start by thanking the Fianna Fáil backbenchers for their warm praise for me "giving the Taoiseach a clean bill of health". I repeat that I accept what the Taoiseach said, that is, that he did not delay the planning tribunal for five years. I accept that. I want to ask him, like I did yesterday, if that means he did not delay the transfer of any single document. If he says he did not, I accept that too.

I want to refer back to the TV3 programme which had absolutely nothing to do with that allegation. It was about tax evasion and standards in public life. What we know from yesterday and from the TV3 programme is that a donation of IR£50,000, made for whatever purpose, was placed in a bogus non-resident account in Castlebar by a then serving senior Fianna Fáil Cabinet Minister and that within months that money was drawn out. Deputy Cooper-Flynn said she was not involved in setting up the bogus non-resident account and nobody ever said she was. She also said she did not know the origins of the money. She said she did not ask and she was not told. Of course, her father, Pádraig Flynn, did know it was hot money. He knew that, but apparently he did not tell her.

She also told the House that she included a standard letter warning that it was the client's responsibility to look after their tax affairs. That is the same standard letter that she, and other colleagues in her bank, sent to hundreds of people with hot money and which has led now to €48.5 million being recouped by the Revenue Commissioners, on the word of the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners to the Committee of Public Accounts before Christmas. So much for the standard letter. We will take her word for it in the meantime.

I want to go back to ask the Taoiseach about the gravamen of these allegations, never mind holding up the tribunal. Has the Taoiseach spoken to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, about the matters he considered to be of the utmost gravity?

What did the Taoiseach mean when he said he did not ask Mr. Gilmartin if he had made a donation to Fianna Fáil? He said yesterday, "I am quite certain I would not have asked him did he give a contribution to Fianna Fáil." Two minutes later he said to me: "If he brought up the issue with me I might have exchanged discussion with him about it." A minute later, the Taoiseach said: "If he brought it up in conversation, I could well have engaged in conversation with him." What is the Taoiseach saying there? Is the Taoiseach saying he did not ask him if he had made a donation but that he did discuss the £50,000 with him in conversation? What exactly is the Taoiseach saying?

I will take the three questions quickly, one of which was about Deputy Cooper-Flynn. I heard her statement yesterday. That statement will now form part of the investigation by the tribunal into these matters. I have no comment to make. These matters will now be looked at. I will say no more than what I have said previously. We will have to await the examination of the details. I am in no position to investigate any of these matters. I have no power of compellability, or papers or witnesses. These will all be considered during the overall examination which Members know is ongoing.

With regard to Deputy Rabbitte's question concerning what I said yesterday regarding the £50,000, I have no recollection of ever having discussed this with Mr. Gilmartin, even the phone call he made to me. Apparently, his records state that he made a phone call to me to say he was in difficulties and had problems, and that he asked me if I could be helpful to him, because he had found me helpful on previous occasions when he met me at the Department of Labour and at my constituency office. He states that in that phone call he mentioned to me that he had given Pádraig Flynn money or a donation or whatever.

A gift.

While he stated that he made that clear to me, I have no recollection whatever of that conversation. What I said to the Deputy yesterday and what I have said previously is that I have no reason to say the man is not telling the truth. He said that during the conversation he referred to the fact that he had given money to Fianna Fáil and to Mr. Flynn, who was party treasurer. My point to the House yesterday was that I would not ask anyone for a donation, even when I was party treasurer. I would not ring anybody in that regard or in conversation ask somebody for money for myself or the party. I would of course have sent out letters on behalf of the party over the years.

What other question was I asked?

The Taoiseach was asked about the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and tax evasion.

I have had no conversation regarding this matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. As far as I am aware regarding these matters, the Minister was saying no more than what he heard as gossip around the place. He certainly did not raise anything with me in his capacity as Attorney General or as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the past or in recent days. I am certain of that.

Is the Taoiseach saying that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is given to describing gossip around the place as of the utmost gravity? Is that the kind of Minister we have?

This is a serious matter.

I seem to recall Deputy Rabbitte himself hearing a rumour in a pub in regard to the beef tribunal.

That comes from the man who wants to build a marina on the wrong side of the road, on the side where the water is not.

Deputy Rabbitte has no recollection of the rumour he heard.

While he says he has no recollection of discussing this matter with Mr. Gilmartin, the Taoiseach said yesterday:

I am quite certain I would not have asked him did he give a contribution to Fianna Fáil ..... If he brought up the issue with me I might have exchanged discussion with him about it.

Is the Taoiseach saying he has no recollection but that he might have discussed it with him? Is that right? If Mr. Gilmartin discussed the matter with him, would the Taoiseach be likely to forget a donation of £50,000 at a time when the sum would buy two houses in the area where I live? Does the Taoiseach think Mr. Gilmartin discussed the matter with him or not?

The Deputy's minute is concluded.

That is very interesting. Our time is now less than half of the time for the previous item. I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, to permit me to finish my question.

Sorry, as the Deputy is well aware, the Chair draws to the attention of Members that their time is concluded

It is a third of the time you allowed for the previous exchange.

It is not a question of the time the Chair allows. The Chair is not in a position to stop Members continuing to speak and it is done on both sides of the House. The Chair would like Members to abide by the Standing Orders that they themselves introduced.

I will have to accept your ruling, Sir. Now will you let me finish?

The Taoiseach said yesterday that Fianna Fáil will consider what remedies are open to it when the tribunal reports. Surely the Taoiseach's lawyers must have advised him that the statute of limitations applies six years from the date of knowledge. We might take the date of knowledge to be 6 October 1998, the day that the Fianna Fáil general secretary dashed off a letter for the sake of appearances — the only letter, which was never followed up — to find whether this money was for Fianna Fáil and where it was. Six years from 6 October 1998, no remedy is open to the Taoiseach. Have his lawyers not advised him of that?

I will try to stay within the Standing Order. Our legal advice is that we must await the conclusion of the tribunal report. That has been the legal advice for several years from a number of different senior counsel. We have no other evidence or proof in regard to these matters.

The Taoiseach would want to get his procedures right.

Even Deputy Jim O'Keeffe would understand what the Taoiseach is saying.

Even in recent times, our senior counsel have stated that.

With regard to the other matter raised by Deputy Rabbitte, I have no recollection whatever of having a discussion with Mr. Gilmartin on the phone. However, Mr. Gilmartin has stated for many years that he rang me and asked me for assistance and whether I knew anybody in Dublin Corporation who would assist him. I subsequently sent a councillor to him and that councillor has confirmed that, so Mr. Gilmartin obviously rang me. I accept that and that I sent somebody to him. That is clear.

Mr. Gilmartin said that during that conversation he mentioned to me that he had given money to the party or to Pádraig Flynn. He may well have. If he said that he gave a donation to Fianna Fáil through Pádraig Flynn who was then party treasurer, it would not have registered with me. It would have registered as a big amount, admittedly, although I do not know how many subscriptions we would have got at that time, but it would not have registered. With an enormous developer who was spending approximately £250 million on one project and a few hundred million pounds on another project, it would not have struck me as anything odd.

I have no recollection whatever. We have encountered large amounts of money in regard to different parties so we should not get into that. While I have no recollection whatever of the conversation with Mr. Gilmartin, I accept it must have taken place because I sent somebody to try to help him.