Luas and metro funding decision
Sargent welcomes the Luas and presses for a decision on a metro, arguing that project overspending should not prevent investment. The Taoiseach says the full metro may be unaffordable and disputes claims of waste, distinguishing indicative estimates from tender and final costs.
While I welcome back the Taoiseach, it is regrettable that he has not changed one iota because his answers do not relate to the questions or make much sense. Perhaps his answer to a question will be an issue of the day. I welcome the commencement at long last of the Luas service, particularly as the Green Party was the first party to call for a light rail service in the 1980s. The Fianna Fáil Party promised light rail for Dublin in 1991 but we have had decades of dithering before what Dubliners are calling the ‘Daniel Day Lewis' is operating. At least, however, we have something to show after so long.
In the face of the scathing and scandalous reports about lack of planning and cost analysis in transport, particularly in today's Irish Independent, has the Government learned anything in recent years and will it change its ways in the future? Will a comprehensive Luas system be provided whereby the two lines will be connected between Abbey Street and St. Stephen’s Green?
More pertinently, when will the Government make a decision on the metro, given that it has been promised so often? When I asked about the metro on 30 September 2003, the Taoiseach replied: "The matter will come before Government in the next few weeks when we will make a decision." The Minister for Transport stated in May 2003, "I will bring my proposals to Government in the coming weeks"; in June 2003 he said "Next month"; in July 2003 he said "Shortly"; in October 2003 he said, "In the coming weeks we will have the metro decision"; in November 2003 he stated, "It will be coming to the Government shortly"; in December 2003 he said "In the coming weeks"; in January 2004 he said "coming weeks" and he made the same statement in March. Promises have been made repeatedly. How many weeks will it take for a decision to be taken on the metro? For a change, will the Taoiseach give us a date because "coming weeks" is like Waiting for Godot?
Comment on this
I welcome the Deputy's support for the Luas project, which has taken time. It has been costly for the taxpayer but it is a good project. Hopefully, finalisation of the original report will happen in time, whether it is in the form of the metro or otherwise. As the Deputy is aware, we have examined a number of proposals. The Rail Procurement Agency has brought forward many proposals over the past few years regarding a metro or completion of the Luas or a light rail system. The difficulty is the cost of these projects has been astronomical and the cost is way out of line with what is considered reasonable for the taxpayer to bear.
Comment on this
We have looked at alternatives to see if the projects can be done more cheaply. We have examined what has happened internationally. For example, we looked at the Spanish experience in detail. It is easy for people to point out how it can be done cheaply in some places but not in others. However, planning laws, constitutional law and the rights of people vary and one cannot match like with like. The Minister for Transport has reviewed all the reports he has received and all the alternatives, and we must make a decision on this.
Comment on this
This is Deputy Sargent's question. I ask the Deputies to leave it to their party leader.
Comment on this
The issue of a final decision on this will be based on whether the capital programme can for a sustained number of years cost such a huge project.
Comment on this
To put a metro into the city on the scale proposed by the Minister and the Department would take up an enormous section of the capital programme for the entire State for an inordinate number of years and we must examine whether the project should be phased or whether we can complete part of the project. My feeling is it will be extremely difficult to undertake the entire project. One cannot justify the cost of the entire project over other priorities in the rest of the State. The Government will make a decision on the resources that can be put in shortly.
Comment on this
I did not ask the Taoiseach about his feelings, I asked him when he would decide on the metro, but he talked about having to watch the cost. The level of brass neck was astounding because reports in today's newspapers indicate a total disregard for the cost of such projects. A sum of €9.4 billion in taxpayers' money has been wasted on capital projects and that must be addressed. Luas cost €750 million but €9.4 billion has been wasted. A number of Luas lines and a good metro could be built for that amount. It is amazing the Taoiseach is not prepared to address that issue and reach a decision on the metro while he is at it.
The Taoiseach referred to a cost problem, yet no cost benefit analysis has been conducted on the roads programme, the NRA's road needs study was rejected by him and he has decided to build 800 km of motorway. I am amazed I have not received a reply to the question I asked. A cost benefit analysis of the roads programme has not been conducted, yet four times more is being spent on roads than on public transport in the capital programme. When will the metro decision be taken? The people need to know. The Taoiseach told me in September 2003 that a decision would be taken in a few weeks. Can we at least get a date?
Comment on this
The Taoiseach has been saying that for the past year.
Comment on this
Money is not wasted. When a project is proposed, an indicative sum is listed before site acquisition, a decision on a route, planning or a tender price — I refer to the tender price of most contracts in recent years. The Comptroller and Auditor General acknowledges that fixed price contracts are coming in more or less on time. For example, there have been difficulties with the enormous port tunnel project but the total price will be under €700 million, which compares favourably with the tender price. There is not much change even on large scale projects, particularly if one considers the design issues that arose on the port tunnel project.
Comment on this
There is a difference between 1999 and 2004 prices but roads projects were proposed and indicative prices listed. Land values, construction prices and price inflation changed in the interim.
Comment on this
What about the NRA road needs study?
Comment on this
We would rather spend the money on public transport.
Comment on this
A fair examination will show the reasons for this. We cannot waste money and we must ensure it is well used, but like must be compared with like. Final price should not be compared with indicative price. The tender price, at least, should be used for comparison and that shows there is not much difference.