Will the Taoiseach inform the House whether Aer Lingus will be the biggest casualty of the in-fighting in the Cabinet and between the two parties comprising this coalition? As the Taoiseach seeks to re-position Fianna Fáil, the national airline is left leaderless after the management — whatever one thinks of its direction — sought a clear indication from the Government as to the way forward, only to receive mixed signals in response. As a result of the resignations, the value of Aer Lingus has been shot to shreds and the prospect of finding a quality person to lead the company is virtually nil. The shareholder has lost confidence in the management without having any clear direction itself.

As the Taoiseach seeks to re-position Fianna Fáil and jettison the Progressive Democrats, there is no answer from the Government as to what is the future of the national airline. We have a very successful private airline in this country but we do not want a second Ryanair because, as an island nation, we have strategic trade interests. When the management sought direction, it was given conflicting signals. The former Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, wanted to privatise the company and negotiated with the unions through the national press. He was moved from his position by the Taoiseach after the June elections and the new Minister was given the opposite riding instructions. It is clear from the exchanges on "Morning Ireland" this morning that a direct head on conflict is involved in this case. When the Taoiseach informed the House that he shot down the notion of a management buy-out, he did so four days after Mr. Willie Walsh advised the Department of Transport that he was withdrawing it. That is typical of the Taoiseach's decisiveness after the event.

The day Mr. Willie Walsh and his colleagues proposed the MBO, I shot it down.

What did the Taoiseach tell the House?

As a result of the actions of the Government and the former Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, in supporting the management of Aer Lingus, which has been in place for just a few years, and its predecessors, in a short period of time we turned Aer Lingus from being a loss-making commercial semi-State body to one which made a profit of €90 million last year and €100 million this year. I checked the Official Report last night which showed that even when, as late as a few weeks ago there were calls in this House for the management to resign, I defended it in Leaders' question for three separate weeks.

Who called for the resignations?

The Deputy should check the record. Deputy Rabbitte has just said he checked the record, therefore, the Deputy should do the same.

I congratulate the management for the job it did. The current business plan seeks to maximise the competitiveness of Aer Lingus as a low cost carrier with much lower costs achieved through out-sourcing. Negotiations on the industrial relations implications of this approach have been continuing at the LRC for some time. The unions are not convinced that this business model is necessarily the best. They are concerned about the impact on working conditions and believe that the management's negotiating style is deliberately aggressive.

I have read with interest some of the articles in this morning's newspapers but they are badly informed about what has really been going on. There has been a very difficult IR position. The workers and the unions are concerned that the very people they were dealing with as management wanted to sell out to make themselves extremely rich. That was the underlying position of the trade union movement to which I have been listening all year.

The Taoiseach is scapegoating Mr. Willie Walsh.

The level of trust between management and unions is non-existent. There is huge resentment that the management team has claimed virtually all the credit for the rescue of Aer Lingus after the events of 11 September 2001, ignoring the huge effort by union leaders and staff to make the changes work. That is what I have been dealing with. They are also determined not to yield up savings which they perceive are intended to enrich a management team concerned with its own position rather than the company's future.

The Taoiseach is dumping on management.

If I made this speech outside the House, I would be accused of not coming before it. I am trying to give the facts of what is happening on a daily basis at the Labour Relations Commission and in the trade unions and what is the real story. If the House wants to hear it, I will continue but if it does not, I will sit down.

The question of why a State owned airline might make sense in current circumstances has not yet been fully addressed. The Goldman Sachs report has been with the Government for just about a month. It is obvious that national flag carriers are fewer in number as a result of competition from low cost carriers and poor management and operations. However, for an island nation heavily dependent on trade, overseas investment and tourism, there are important strategic issues, which must be satisfactorily resolved. If somebody is in a hurry to go somewhere else, it is not——

When did the Taoiseach discover this?

I will ask the Deputy to leave the House if she does not remain silent and allow the Taoiseach to speak.

I have great regard for Deputy Shortall. In reply to her question, that is the reason we have sought a number of strategic reports, including the report we commissioned from Goldman Sachs last May. If Aer Lingus were privatised, there would still be point to point connections from Ireland to major international destinations. Connectivity to Ireland, especially for the business traveller, both direct and through the main hubs, is a consideration from a competitiveness point of view.

There is much evidence of some unease in the business community about the reduction in both the nature and quality of the connections. The Government is trying, based on last month's Goldman Sachs report, to make the necessary and right decision — it is a big decision for the staff, management, the board and the country — on the national airline. I will not just click my fingers because some right wing economists believe we should privatise it.

The Taoiseach has scuttled the management and now he is scuttling the Progressive Democrats.

You want it every way.

You are pathetic; you are destroying it.

Deputy, allow your party leader to submit a question.

It is no wonder Deputy McDowell moved over to this seat.

Deputy, you are not the party leader.

Deputy McDowell moved to the left.

You have moved away, Michael.

He is not welcome over there.

When did the Taoiseach get worried about selling State companies and executives getting fat? He was not very concerned about it when he dismantled Telecom Éireann. Many people got fat but it was not the ordinary shareholders. This is an extraordinary change——

Yes, that is your——

I can remind you of a few companies that went down the tubes.

The older brother is getting upset. Every morning he acts as a ventriloquist on the shoulder of the Taoiseach.

A great one liner.

The Taoiseach has lost the leaders of this company, although he says he defended them in the House. However, look at the value of Aer Lingus today in the market. How does the Taoiseach propose to recruit a chief executive when the shareholder does not know what it wants? Will he have the same success as he had in recruiting a chief executive for the health agency?

There is a serious sunder in the Government now. Two clearly opposite positions were expressed on the radio this morning. The reason the Taoiseach is in secret negotiations with a number of Independent Deputies is to provide protection for when the Progressive Democrats will be forced out of the Government. That is the reality. The Taoiseach knows that even the most heroic Independents will not vote themselves out of this House, so he will survive without the Progressive Democrats.

Test us.

We would not have to put up too much of a test.

Who gave Deputy Rabbitte a mandate to speak for us?

We will save Aer Lingus.

Deputy Rabbitte to conclude.

That is what is under way. The two positions in Government cannot be reconciled. Will the Taoiseach retain State control of Aer Lingus? Is that what he is now telling the House since the conversion at Inchydoney?

You went through a few conversions in your time.

Deputy Rabbitte would like to think that the Minister, Deputy McDowell, and myself have some differences on this——

Comrade McDowell.

——as if there were only two options. The Goldman Sachs report suggests about ten, so it is not so simple.

Will you publish the report?

I will outline the position because it is important for the staff of Aer Lingus. The Goldman Sachs report is premised on the State examining whether it should invest equity. It is clear that such investment would be acceptable under State aids and I said as much in the House a month ago. State guarantees would be a form of State aid, which would not involve cash investment. The report then goes on to consider various forms of equity injections. It looks at privatisation and a number of different models. It is up to the Government to go through those and make a decision.

The Government has been engaged actively and comprehensively in the review of the policy on Aer Lingus and wider aviation issues. We thank and were pleased with Willie Walsh and his colleagues who worked on this——

What do you mean? On how many occasions have you——

Allow the Taoiseach without interruption.

A Cheann Comhairle, will you give Deputy Ryan an hour tonight to speak? All he does is interrupt. He has not made a speech in months. Give him an hour so he can speak.

That is typical. You come out with things like that but you should read the Official Report.

We cannot hear you.

Does Deputy Ryan wish to leave the House?

No.

It appears to the Chair that you do.

The people of Dublin North put me here and I will stay here.

Aer Lingus is a success story thanks not only to the management but also to the union leadership and the industrial relations machinery, which made a major successful transformation possible through agreement. Of necessity, there will be a need for continuing change in all airlines as the industry evolves. We are aware of that from aviation trends worldwide. No player is indispensable. A new management team will be appointed and the Government will proceed to take the necessary decisions as shareholder. We will complete our discussions on the Goldman Sachs report. Aviation policy and, by extension, the future of Aer Lingus are major strategic questions for an island nation that is heavily dependent on trade, investment and tourism. Policy decisions will be taken with an eye to the long-term future. We will not be stampeded by anyone.

Meanwhile, you are destroying the company.

The Government is close to making the necessary strategic decisions based on a report it received just a few weeks ago. It is important that those who are currently negotiating changes in the airline continue to address the necessity for change and flexibility so the future can be secured for everybody in Aer Lingus. That is our position.

The Government could not run a sweet shop.

Does comrade McDowell agree with that?