I wish to respond to the formal request made by Deputy Kehoe, the Fine Gael Whip, for a debate on the resignation of the former Minister of State, Deputy Callely. I have checked as best I can with regard to precedent and I am led to believe that in the case of the resignations of the then Ministers of State, Deputy Hogan and Mr. Bobby Molloy, a statement was made by the Deputies in question. There was no debate. I have consulted the former Minister of State, Deputy Callely, and he does not wish to make a statement.

He has nothing to say.

Deputy Hogan's resignation was due to breaching the Official Secrets Act.

Deputy Callely will only talk to Pat Kenny.

Deputy Hogan is back on the Fine Gael Front Bench.

We now move on to the Financial Motions by the Minister for Finance. The Taoiseach should be allowed to make his speech.

A Cheann Comhairle——

Sorry, Deputy Kenny, we cannot have a debate on this matter.

I am not going to debate the matter.

Not now. I have called the Taoiseach to speak on motion No. 5.

The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, said this matter was bizarre and sinister.

The Deputy will have to find another way of raising the matter.

Despite the fact that the former Minister of State does not want to give an explanation, he did say on national radio that he had written to all his Cabinet colleagues explaining his position.

I would prefer if Deputy Kenny tabled a substantive motion on the issue. Deputy Kenny is being disorderly. I call the Taoiseach to speak on the financial motion No. 5.

We should set time aside today for an explanation of this matter.

On a point of order.

It is a matter of national public concern.

If Deputy Kenny is not happy with Standing Orders he should change them. He knows he can raise the matter in this House by way of substantive motion. I remind him that we are not having a debate on it now.

The former Minister of State said what was going on was bizarre and sinister. The Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, said there was a conspiracy.

I ask Deputy Kenny to resume his seat.

Why can we not debate it?

Deputy Connaughton should also resume his seat.

We need an explanation. At the very least we should have the letter of resignation read into the record of the Dáil.

On a point of order, Deputy Kenny read out the remark made by the Taoiseach.

That is not a point of order.

It is a point of order because a precedent was set.

The matter has been dealt with this morning.

The Taoiseach set the standard. Is he willing to stand over it now?

It must be plain to the Government at this stage that we want a reasonable period to debate the matters that surround the resignation of Deputy Callely.

That matter has been dealt with. The House has now moved on to the financial motion. Deputy Rabbitte will have to find another way of raising the matter.

No.

As the Chair has pointed out numerous times, he will have an opportunity to raise the matter by submitting a substantive motion on the issue.

I have been trying to find a way for the past hour, and you have not been helpful. The resignations of Deputy Hogan and Mr. Bobby Molloy were entirely different on a net point.

We are not having a debate on the issue now. It is an abuse of the House to continue to raise this matter.

No, Sir. It is a proper use of the House.

The Chair has ruled on the matter. I call the Taoiseach to speak on the budget.

There are serious issues surrounding this resignation. The former Minister of State referred to them as bizarre and sinister.

I am sorry, Deputy. We cannot have a debate on this matter. The Chair has ruled in accordance with Standing Orders and precedent. If Deputy Rabbitte wishes to have a debate on the matter, he must submit a substantive motion.

There are implications that involve other members of the Cabinet, specifically the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin.

The Deputy can have a debate by submitting the substantive motion.

No, the House will not sit tomorrow.

Deputy Rabbitte is being disorderly. I ask him to resume his seat.

All I am looking for is Government time today——

The issue has been dealt with. That has been raised.

——to discuss the issue. That is the only thing I am looking for.

The Deputy cannot continue to raise the matter, as it has already been dealt with this morning. I ask him to resume his seat.

It has not been dealt with this morning.

That is the whole point.

The manner by which it can be debated has been dealt with.

Not adequately.

The matter has not been dealt with.

I ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat.

The matter has not been dealt with.

Sorry, the matter of how it can be debated in this House has been dealt with. We have spent far too long debating it. I ask Deputy Rabbitte to resume his seat.

The Minister debates on the national airwaves but not here.

I see no point in this House continuing.

The Deputy may well see no point in the House but the Standing Orders are there.

I see no point in the House continuing.

The Taoiseach on the budget.

On a point of order, the precedent has been disrespected by the other side of the House.

Sorry, the issue of how it can be debated has been discussed.

The Ceann Comhairle is helping to smother debate in this House by his actions.

There is no precedent.

It has been railroaded through.

There is no precedent for unstructured debate in this House.

There is a precedent.

Is Deputy Quinn not satisfied? Has he no heart? He has come far ahead.

He can tell the nation. He will not make a statement in here but he will make one on the Pat Kenny show.

On a point of order.

If it is not a point of order, the Deputy will leave the House.

Why did the Ceann Comhairle's predecessor give a different ruling to him?

My predecessors did not give a different ruling. If the Deputy wants the salient rulings of the House, there are dozens of them.

On a point of order, when the former Minister of State, Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, resigned, we had a statement and questions in the House. That is a precedent.

That is the way it should be done.

That is not a point of order.

There is a precedent. You said there was no precedent.

We will move on to the budget now. The Deputies are to find another way to raise it.

No.

I remind the Ceann Comhairle of the words of the Taoiseach, when he said——

The Deputy has already said the words.

——quite rightly about Deputy Lowry that he has a "duty to satisfy Dáil Éireann, the supreme authority in the land and the one to which he remains answerable."

£200,000 versus £1,500 — some extension.

Deputy Lenihan is awake.

We need an explanation in here. The Taoiseach knew what happened. He was given a letter this morning.

I ask for ciúnas, please.

This House needs to have a debate about this for one hour. We can talk about the budget all next week.

This House can have a debate under Standing Orders, as the Chair has already pointed out. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

We have made a formal request to the Government for a debate. There are clearly precedents on a number of occasions.

He can talk on the Pat Kenny show and he cannot talk in here.

He is dying to talk.

On a point of order, the Government Chief Whip said that Deputy Callely——

That is not a point of order.

It is a point of order.

It is not a point of order. The Chair has ruled. I call on Deputy McManus. The Deputy will resume his seat.

The Ceann Comhairle did not hear my question.

Sorry, that is not a point of order.

Hear him out.

I have not made it yet.

The Deputy wishes to debate the issue.

The point of order is that the Government Chief Whip was allowed to make a statement. He said that the option was——

That is not a point of order.

The point of order is that the option is open to Deputy Callely to make a statement.

Sorry, the Deputy will resume his seat.

The Pat Kenny show is now the new Dáil Chamber.

The Ceann Comhairle can put me out if he wants but the people are entitled to hear the Minister of State in this House.

What Minister of State? He is no longer a Minister of State.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

We are entitled to hear him in here.

He is making statements everywhere.

If we can hear him on the Pat Kenny show, we can hear him in here. We want to hear him here. The Ceann Comhairle can put me out if he wants. I want to hear the former Minister of State in the House to which he was elected, not on the airwaves.

I ask Deputy O'Dowd to resume his seat and listen to the Chair on the point he raised.

I want to hear the former Minister of State.

The Deputy should resume his seat.

He will have a few good statements to make.

It is Deputy Callely's prerogative whether he wishes to make a statement. It is nobody else's decision. If he wishes——

He has been told by the Taoiseach not to speak.

It does not arise in the House. Deputy McManus wishes to speak.

On a point of order.

On a point of order.

Will everybody get up and speak together and we will get all the points of order? I call Deputy McManus.

Everybody understands that it is the Ceann Comhairle's task to keep order in this House and that is not always an easy one. However, the Ceann Comhairle depends on precedent to keep order in this House.

No, Standing Orders and precedent.

The precedent is very clear now. The two Ministers of State came in here and made statements in the past.

Sorry, the Chair has already stated that it is a matter for any Deputy in this House——

Another former Minister not only made a statement but had a debate.

——and the Chair will protect Standing Orders and precedents in this House on that matter.

How does the Ceann Comhairle think he will keep order in the future if he cannot rely on precedents?

That is a matter for the Deputy. It is not a matter for the House to decide what Deputy speaks or does not speak.

We now have a situation where it is clear that the Taoiseach has silenced the Minister of State. We will not take this because——

We will move on. I call on the Taoiseach.

——the Taoiseach is responsible.

Will the Taoiseach let him speak?

On a point of order, it is true that we are all bound by Standing Orders but we are also bound by the Constitution. There is a constitutional obligation on the House to hold the Executive accountable to Parliament.

That is provided for in Standing Orders and the Chair has already pointed out how it is done.

Under the Constitution, the Executive — the Government — is accountable to the people through the Dáil.

The business of the House has been decided for today.

A decision was made this morning on the resignation of a Minister——

Sorry, we will have to move on.

——which in any parliament in any democracy would be subject to debate.

That is not a point of order.

This is about the Constitution. This is about the constitutional responsibility of the Government to be accountable to the House.

Deputy Gilmore has an opportunity in this House to submit a substantive motion if he wants to have a debate. I call on Deputy Seán Ryan.

The House will not sit tomorrow. Today is the day to debate this issue here.

The business of the House has been decided for today.

This issue could be resolved if the time was allocated to permit the former Minister of State, Deputy Callely, to make a statement and for the matter to be debated.

We have three days left to debate this.

I have given serious consideration to what I will say this morning.

First time ever.

On a point of order, I believe the Ceann Comhairle is protecting the Taoiseach and the Government and is denying democracy.

Outrageous.

The Deputy will withdraw that statement.

The Minister of State has been instructed by the Taoiseach not to speak inside this House.

That is a straight lie.

He is denying democracy.

The Chair is on his feet. Deputy Ryan will withdraw the statement that the Chair is protecting the Government.

He is.

The Deputy will leave the House.

If the Ceann Comhairle keeps on like this there will be no one left.

On a point of order, during that exchange, a Minister of State accused a Member of the House of being a liar. Will that be addressed?

I deem that Deputy Seán Ryan be suspended from the service of the Dáil. Is that opposed? Yes. The vote will take place next Tuesday.

It is outrageous.

On a point of order.

We are dealing with a point of disorder. I will hear him.

Why should he leave? There has not been a vote yet.

The former Minister of State has been instructed by the Government not to speak in Dáil Éireann but he can speak on the radio and television.

We were allowed to hear Deputy Callely speak on "Today with Pat Kenny".

A Minister has accused a Member of the House of being a liar. Will the Ceann Comhairle deal with that issue?

Sorry, Deputy Howlin, we are dealing with a point of disorder.

I do not recall this ever happening before.

Deputy Ryan must leave the House.

On a point of order——

We cannot have a point of order in the middle of a point of disorder. Deputy Ryan must leave the House. Will he leave the House?

I am being asked to leave the House while the Government is not prepared to take the opportunity to deal with the issue before the House.

I ask Members to respect the fact that this is a national parliament, not a crèche.

Yes, but the Ceann Comhairle is denying the fact.

On a point of order——

We are dealing with a point of disorder. We cannot have a point of order when dealing with a point of disorder.

On what basis is the Ceann Comhairle asking Deputy Ryan to leave the House, since the House has not voted on the matter?

Deputy Ryan must leave the House.

On what basis? The House has not decided the matter.

He must leave the House for being disorderly in the House and making serious allegations against the Chair.

The House has not decided the matter. The Ceann Comhairle cannot ask Deputy Ryan to leave the House when the House has not decided the matter.

Under Standing Order No. 61, I have asked Deputy Seán Ryan to leave the House.

No such decision has been made by the House.

Sorry, Deputy, under Standing Order No. 61, provision is made for a vote.

The House has not decided. Where is the vote? Where is the Ceann Comhairle's authority when the House has not voted? The Ceann Comhairle cannot ask a Member of this House to leave the House when the House has not voted on the matter.

Standing Order No. 61 is quite specific.

Yes, but Deputy Ryan does not have to leave because the House has not voted.

The Standing Order states clearly that a division claimed is postponed until before the Order of Business on the next sitting day, and the Deputy stands suspended and must withdraw from the Chamber. That is the standing order, put in place by the Members of this House.

On what basis does the Ceann Comhairle presume what the decision of the House will be?

I am not presuming.

The Ceann Comhairle does not know the decision of the House. The House must vote.

I am not presuming anything. That is the Standing Order and if the Deputy wants to defy Standing Orders, that is a matter for him, but the Chair cannot allow that. Deputy Ryan is to leave the House.

This would all be sorted if the Taoiseach allowed Deputy Callely to speak.

I ask Deputy Seán Ryan to leave the House.

It is a disgrace that I have been asked to leave the House.

The Deputy has been disorderly.

The details of the resignation of the Minister of State are not being given.

I ask the Deputy to leave the House.

No way.

The Taoiseach has told Deputy Callely not to give an explanation.

I ask the Deputy to leave, please.

I leave in protest. It is a poor day for democracy when I have to leave the House.

The Deputy has been disorderly.

A great deal of information on this matter can be told on radio but it cannot be debated in this House.

The Deputy is asked to leave because he has been disorderly.

It is a disgrace.

I remind the House that we have now spent an hour and a half on the Order of Business. That is the fault of the Members who interrupt. The business of the House was to debate the budget, when there would be an opportunity for Members to raise most issues. Clearly, Members are trying to frustrate us getting on to the budget.

I have not so far interjected in this debate. The Ceann Comhairle may not have heard it, but during his exchange with Deputy Seán Ryan, a Minister of State accused a Member of this House of being a liar. In my experience in this House, that has never been allowed pass.

When the Chair hears such a remark it does not allow it to stand. If a Member made such a remark I would ask the Member to withdraw it.

The Ceann Comhairle now knows the remark was made.

Will the Ceann Comhairle listen to the tape? This House's proceedings are recorded.

I withdrew the remark. I corrected the remark just after I made it.

We will move on to Financial Motion No. 5.

I made a formal request this morning to the Chief Government Whip for the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, to make a statement, or to have a debate in this House on the matter we have been discussing. As a new Member of this House, elected in 2002, I believe it is a sad day for democracy.

It is a matter for Deputy Callely, if he wishes to make a statement. It is not a point of order

The Ceann Comhairle should let Deputy Kehoe speak.

Yesterday evening, on RTE1 and on TV3 we heard an interview by Deputy Callely.

That does not arise. Deputy McEntee to speak on a point of order.

This morning, on the "Today with Pat Kenny" radio show, we heard an interview with Deputy Callely.

That is not a matter for the House.

This is an absolute shame. Millions of people outside this House are talking about democracy in the House.

The Deputy is entitled to his opinion.

It is a matter for the Taoiseach.

The Ceann Comhairle should take his tablets.

I have called Deputy McEntee.

I would like to finish my point of order.

It is not a point of order.

It is. For the sake of democracy, Deputy Callely should make a statement to the House.

That is not a point of order. It is a matter entirely for Deputy Callely. This House cannot force any Member, on any side of the House, to make a statement if he or she does not wish to make one.

In 1994, Deputy Hogan gave a statement to this House.

Having spoken about democracy, perhaps the Deputy will allow us to get on with the business of the House.

If Deputy Callely will not make a statement, will the Taoiseach make one?

The business for the day has already been decided.

Whose fault is that?