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Dáil
‹ Leaders’ Questions.

EU child benefit and racist remarks

Summary

Kenny demands that the Taoiseach repudiate a Minister of State’s claim that Fine Gael is racist, while challenging the Government’s handling of child benefit for EU workers’ children living abroad. The Taoiseach explains the longstanding reciprocal EU rules, gives current claim figures and says he does not consider Fine Gael racist, but says he did not hear the remark and does not want to pursue it.

Before I get into the substance of the question I ask that the Taoiseach dissociate himself from the remarks made by the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science with special responsibility for children yesterday evening when he alleged that Fine Gael was a racist party. I ask the Taoiseach to instruct him forthwith to withdraw that remark. It is not racist to ask legitimate questions about where taxpayers' money goes, nor is it racist to point out that the Government has not done its sums and that the scheme announced by the Minister for Finance to help parents of all nationalities with the high cost of child care in Ireland now appears to be open to children not living in the country.

On 7 December 2005 the Minister for Finance, in the Budget Statement, said "the Government acknowledges the continuing cost pressures on parents, particularly those with young children". He then announced the early child care supplement of €1,000 for every child under six. The costing of €353 million was, he said, based on 350,000 children who are under six. In the Taoiseach's speech he said it constituted realistic and effective support for families and children facing the pressures of life in a modern dynamic economy. The Government does not have a great track record on budget day announcements, be it on pre-1953 pensions or the estimates for medical cards.

It is clear, therefore, that the purpose of the early child care supplement is to help parents with the cost of child care in this country. Will the Taoiseach explain why the supplement will now be payable in respect of children who do not live in Ireland and whose parents do not, therefore, face the same high costs of child care? How does he explain to taxpayers in Ireland that part of what they pay in tax goes toward the cost of child care in other countries, when the clear intention of the measure was to be an early child care supplement to deal with child care costs in Ireland?

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Under EU regulations migrants from EU member states working in Ireland whose dependent children are resident in their own country are entitled to claim child benefit here for children, either in full or as a top-up, if there is an equivalent payment but at a lower rate in their country of origin. That has been the position since 1971.

This arrangement has been there for 36 years. Obviously, the numbers have been low over those years and this regulation is designed to facilitate people who wish to move to and work in different member states. We have had reciprocal arrangements here since 1 January 1973 for a whole range of areas which have worked for the benefit of Irish people moving abroad, as happened in the 1970s and 1980s when the flows from this country were 30,000 to 40,000 per year. They were able to receive these benefits. To moan and groan because it has turned the other way, now that 2 million people are working here and people are coming to this labour market, is a bit sad. In the past, there were benefits for Irish people who emigrated to other EU countries with far more generous social welfare systems than ours. Recent benefit increases here, EU enlargement and net immigration have reversed the effects. Ireland has long benefited from these reciprocal arrangements and continues to do so. I mentioned earlier that, under EU regulations, the Irish health service benefited to the extent of €420 million last year as a result of similar benefits for people now in Ireland, many of whom are returned emigrants.

Our advice is that this reciprocal approach, which has existed since 1971, also applies to the early child care supplement. To do anything else on budget day would be to say that it was all right for that arrangement to apply in the case of child benefit, as it did for the past 36 years, but, because we are enhancing the position for our own people, we are in some way going to block that off. The figures for child benefit are about 1,800 and, for children, about 4,000 under-18s, one quarter of whom are under six. The additional money, in a budget of €350 million, would be €1 million. Are we to be real scrooges and change a 36 year-old regulation to save €1 million in a calendar year? We did not do that but, if we did, there would be people in here calling me the biggest racist that ever was. Let us not have a lecture on this.

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Why not?

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Nobody will give the Taoiseach a lecture. I ask him again to dissociate himself from his Minister of State, who branded the Fine Gael Party racist yesterday evening, and request that he ask the Minister of State to withdraw his remark. If the Taoiseach wants any co-operation in this House, he ought to do that in his reply because I will not stand for that kind of allegation from him or any of his Ministers.

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Deputies

Hear, hear.

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It is beneath the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in particular, to draw down a remark like that. It is not in keeping with his or his family's tradition and I ask the Taoiseach to end the matter in his reply.

By calling this a top-up payment, the Government has landed in its current difficulties. Nobody is moaning and groaning and, as I said, it is not racist to ask a legitimate question about legitimate taxpayers' money going towards the child care costs of children in other countries. The Taoiseach is now indicating that the Government has some discretion in this matter. If he had linked this to child care costs here, which was his intention, he could have done it by having a vouched system for bona fide child care facilities and their costs in Ireland.

I understand it was claimed last night on the nine o'clock news that 25% of the 100,000 Polish people resident here have children in Poland. What is the cost, in the Government's calculation, of that? Half an hour ago, the Taoiseach informed me that, in child benefit cases, we would be talking about fewer than 2,000. I do not know what figures his assumptions were based on in the first place. Can he tell me whether there is a figure at which a review of this would be triggered? Will that be 1,000, 2,000, 10,000 or 50,000 children living outside Ireland? If the Government has discretion, why does it not focus its resources on children of all nationalities living here, as distinct from what it has now done?

Comment on this

One does not have discretion in reciprocal arrangements but, in some cases, people administer their systems differently. As I said earlier, it is always good for us to know how people administer systems. Reciprocal arrangements are applied across Europe and regulation 1408/71 has been around for all those years.

With regard to the figure, the Department of Social and Family Affairs states that currently there are about 1,800 child benefit claims, made in respect of approximately 4,000 children under the age of 18 by EU nationals with children resident in other member states. Assuming that one quarter of those children are under the age of six, the additional annual costs for such children will be approximately €1 million. I would like to see what other countries do in reciprocal arrangements but in health, where we received €400 million last year, we should not start to close off arrangements. Perhaps people will interpret it as being generous or assume we do not have these arrangements but we must remember that Irish people, under this very arrangement, were beneficiaries for many years.

Deputy Kenny raised the issue of vouched arrangements. I do not think much of such arrangements, quite frankly. If I was the Deputy——

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The Taoiseach would not. It is our idea, so why would he?

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——I would re-think it. I will explain why. I went through these arrangements and discussions at great length last year and sat in on all the meetings. The Deputy's vouched arrangement would automatically exclude women in the home and that is not very bright.

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They do not have to.

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Where would she go with her voucher?

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Nonsense.

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A useless voucher.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach, please.

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Deputy Kenny should have another look at that. I do not consider the Deputy or his party racist.

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Thank you.

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I did not hear the comment and I do not want to get into it.

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He has a few of them in his own party.

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The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, is coming in himself.

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However, I would not like anyone to try to turn a €350 million budget and say this could cost us a little more and that we should highlight that.

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Paul Connaughton Mr. Connaughton Fine Gael

What are the figures? He did not know them yesterday.

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I have given the figure. We cannot have it both ways.

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Olivia Mitchell Ms O. Mitchell Fine Gael

He made up the figure overnight.

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Let us stop this. We cannot have a position where Irish people who go abroad have reciprocal benefits, left, right and centre, but when somebody from another member state comes in here, we close them off.

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Let us not try to back two horses in a one-horse race. Let us stop that.

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Deputy Lenihan wants to make a statement.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

Why did the Government not follow the advice of the all-party committee?

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption.

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