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Dáil
‹ Leaders’ Questions.

Taoiseach’s remarks on banks

Summary

Rabbitte challenged the Taoiseach’s call to be “nicer to banks,” citing their profitability and findings by Government agencies. The Taoiseach said he was promoting international banks and competition, while agreeing that major banks should provide value for money.

On my behalf and that of my Labour Party colleagues, I join Deputy Kenny and the Taoiseach in extending our sincere sympathy to the parents and wider family of the 15 year old youth who was so tragically killed in this accident, and wish a speedy recovery to all those who were injured.

Will the Taoiseach inform the House on a speech he made at the weekend where he expressed concern that we should be nicer to banks. While it is important to the economy that banks are financially sound and profitable, surely he is aware that banks in this country are the most profitable in Europe. I am puzzled why he thinks we should be nicer to them. He was very nice to them when he discontinued the €100 million levy in the budget. What does he think we can do that would be nicer to them?

The two big banks in this country take three times' more profit per customer than the average bank in Europe. How can we be nicer to them than that? As the Taoiseach is aware, there is entirely inadequate competition in the financial services sector. It is not just me saying so; it is out of the State's own mouth and the mouth of the Government's watchdog. Both the Competition Authority and the National Competitiveness Council indicted the financial sector for inadequate competition. In its report, the Competition Authority found that between 2001 and 2004, small and medium enterprises forfeited €250 million because of the manner in which the reduction in interest rates was applied by banks to SMEs during that four-year period.

Banks have been major beneficiaries of some tax incentive schemes. In its report prior to Christmas, the Central Bank expressed concern at the rate of expansion of personal credit at 25% per annum since the last quarter of 2003. It also sounded a warning about debt increasing at a rate of more than three times the national income. Against that background, and as a self-professed socialist, why was the Taoiseach so concerned at the weekend about banks and can he give us any tips on how we can all be nicer to them?

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I know Deputy Rabbitte was busy over the weekend, therefore, he would not have read my full speech. If he did so, he would have seen the balanced way I presented my speech. I even got thunderous applause from Deputy Bruton and members of the Green Party who were in the audience.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Allow the Taoiseach to reply.

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Unfortunately, members of the Labour Party were elsewhere. Otherwise I would have received the same applause from them.

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That is delusional.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Allow the Taoiseach to reply.

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While the Deputy was not present, his colleagues were. I was highly impressed that one of the smallest parties in the House had the majority of its members at the top table. It was a strategic move to the right by the Green Party to have that power with the top bankers.

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The Taoiseach will have his day as well.

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In reply to Deputy Rabbitte, I was making the point to an industry that employs 55,000 people. I was speaking to international bankers whom we have been trying to encourage to operate and create competition in the Irish economy. We would like to see more funds management and insurance involvement by the banking industry. One of the great selling points of the Irish economy is that more than half of the international banks are based here. There is now more than €1 trillion under funds management in this country. Before attending lunch with the international banks and the IBF, I opened a new wing in Dundrum of the HSBC bank, the Hong Kong and Chinese bank, where there will be a new training and education centre where, in conjunction with the universities, people will be trained to work in the financial services industry, something I have advocated for a long time, and banks will bring their staff, mostly from European locations, to train here.

I made the point that if another industry such as a car company, an information and communications technology industry, or an agricultural co-operative industry makes a profit, people will say it is a good performance because the company made a profit. However, people think there is something wrong if banks make a profit. I have no difficulty saying that the banks should be competitive and charge competitive rates. The best way to do so is to have competition in the market. The bankers I addressed were the people who create that environment, not representatives of just the two main banks in the country.

If the Deputy had an opportunity to read my speech, he would have found it acceptable. I noted over the weekend that the Deputy now thinks all our economic policies, which he disapproved of previously, are now excellent. He omitted one policy, namely, capital gains tax, and he might tell us about that. However, he believes all our other policies are correct. I have no doubt that in the future he will agree with what I said about banks.

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One never knows where it might lead. Would the Taoiseach not be better speaking to banks about the findings of his agencies, including the Competition Authority, the National Competitiveness Council and the Central Bank, which are major issues of public interest? While it is important that banks are profitable because they are major employers, there is a balance in all these matters. The normal tug of the market that applies in some of the private and public companies to which the Taoiseach referred do not apply in the case of the banks. This is the finding of the Government's agencies such as the Competition Authority. What about all the small companies who found themselves levied to the extent of €250 million over four years because of the misapplication of interest rate reductions at the time? Three times' the profit per customer is extracted in this jurisdiction compared with the average bank in Europe.

Given the forum he had, the Taoiseach might have raised these issues. I enjoy all his speeches when I have the good fortune to be present, but I had other duties to attend to at the weekend. However, I will catch up on what he said. I cannot find any instance of the Taoiseach referring to the fact that he dropped the €100 million levy which was applied to the banks by the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, who said at the time it was right the banks should contribute to the public finances. I do not see any reference to the fact the banks are the most profitable in Europe, that the take per customer is three times the average in Europe and that the SMEs forfeited €0.25 billion.

These are major issues. Competition depends on new entrants yet it is virtually impossible to get into the Irish banking market place. These are questions the Taoiseach might have raised rather than counselling the rest of us to be nicer to the banks.

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Deputy Rabbitte knows I do not write the headlines. I was addressing the IFSC banks creating that competition, rather than Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland only. The broad international bank sector is bringing quality employment here. I have no argument with the agency's assertion that our main commercial banks should, along with making profits internationally and at home, give value for money and charge us only what is absolutely necessary. Without mentioning names, many of the bigger banks which we have brought to Ireland in recent years are helping to drive that competition.

The levy was applied for a period under an agreement by the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, and the banking sector. The current Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, is taking another initiative to which I hope the banks will fully contribute. The initial levy was an arrangement made for a fixed period, which is finished. It has its own difficulties but the newly-announced initiative will help. What the Competition Authority says, what the financial regulator says and what the Central Bank does in making sure we have good functioning, good governance and a competitive industry should be supported.

I pointed out our involvement in a reassessment of the strategies for the international banks which will be ready in the middle of the summer. It has been focused on my Department and will hopefully drive more progress in the industry. It is not just a question of bottom line profits. The banking industry gives a great deal of quality employment. It should stick by good business practice and charge accordingly, but most of my comments on the day were focused on the international banks.

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