I do not know whether this is a normal parliamentary exchange with our colleagues from Scotland or whether they want to examine our proposed electronic voting system.

Stay away from it.

This system cost us €52 million. We could not use it because it was not reliable and it costs us almost €1 million a year to store it in various centres around the country. I will ask the Taoiseach about remarks made at the weekend by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, reported in a newspaper as follows: "Roche plans to press ahead with e-voting despite security flaws." The Minister also told TV3:

They will be used in the election and referenda after 2007. I am not going to scrap them. We have actually paid good Irish taxpayers' money for them.

The last part of that is true — we certainly paid good Irish taxpayers' money for them. The Minister's remarks followed the report by the Commission on Electronic Voting to the effect that they were not of sufficient quality to enable their use to be confidently recommended and that functional testing revealed programming errors. The Taoiseach then told me that a Cabinet sub-committee was examining the issue, which reminds me of the remark of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on the protocol to the Maastricht treaty, to the effect that the unfortunate and much-maligned Fianna Fáil backbenchers reminded him of chimpanzees with a screwdriver behind a television set. After the Cabinet sub-committee was set up the Swedish group of computer enthusiasts said the hardware was not secure and explained why in their report. Do the remarks of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, come in the wake of the Cabinet sub-committee's report? Has the Cabinet sub-committee reported or is the Minister misleading us? Does the Government intend that these machines will be used, but like St. Augustine's plea, "not yet", not in the general election 2007 or whenever, but after that? Is that the recommendation of the Cabinet sub-committee?

The Minister says it will not continue to cost €800,000 to store the machines because he will store most of them at some central location guarded by the Army. I would not have thought there was any difficulty in guarding them because they are useless but that seems to be the use the Minister has in mind for the Army. Will the Taoiseach tell the House the Government's position?

The second report of the Commission on Electronic Voting was one of the most comprehensive official reports ever produced on the matter. The overall conclusion of the report was that the system chosen for our country can potentially enhance and deliver real efficiency in the administration of elections.

"Potentially" we could land on Mars.

The commission concluded that it could recommend the voting and counting equipment for use in elections, subject to further work that it recommended and it set out the nature of that work. Deputy Rabbitte correctly said that we established a Cabinet sub-committee, chaired by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, to consider the reports in detail and to report to the Government on the full implications of the commission's report, consider the composition of a peer review group drawn from international electoral reform bodies and the IT industry to supervise any software redesign work, to report to the Government on confidence-building measures and identify any other improvements that might be built in to the system.

What about the report from Sweden?

Yes look at what happened in Sweden and Holland.

In response to Deputies Rabbitte and Jim O'Keeffe, in Holland the anti-electronic campaign group, of which Deputy Rabbitte used not be a part——

It did not work.

Our Scottish friends would find it amusing to know Deputy Rabbitte was totally in favour of electronic voting until the results of the last election.

The Deputy is in the Dark Ages.

They would not find the cost amusing.

Nothing works under this Government.

The anti-electronic voting campaign group in the Netherlands physically hacked into a machine to demonstrate security flaws. If one hacked into a ballot box one could do that too. It is important to note that the Commission on Electronic Voting made recommendations on how the physical and electronic security of the system could be improved. I understand the Dutch Government has stated publicly that the revelations had no implications for the forthcoming elections. I note from media reports, which I received this morning, this is the view of the Dutch national media too.

The commission also concluded that the main hardware components of the system, including the voting machine, are of good quality and design and are robust against failure and well suited to their purpose.

Why do we not use them if they are so wonderful?

The commission offered an overall validation of the investment in the machines——

Are they waterproof?

——and the associated hardware and the most negative conclusion in the report related to the management of the software which it could not recommend. It recommended what should be done to correct this and that is precisely what the committee is endeavouring to do.

If the machines are as good as the Taoiseach says, why are we not using them in the election? Is that not the net point? What is the point in telling us that the software does not work?

The Deputy was not listening.

It is like saying the chassis of a car is in perfect condition but the engine does not work.

That sounds like a Labour car.

I had forgotten the former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen. Let us hear what he said.

Deputy Rabbitte needs to look at his own chassis.

This is a direct quote from Deputy Cullen: "The system Ireland has used successively and will use next year is the most secure electronic system that exists in the world".

At great expense.

Deputy Cullen continued "At all stages all aspects of electronic voting have been tested and re-tested by independent——

No matter what system Deputy Rabbitte uses it will not help him.

——experts. My Department has engaged six independent consultancies [I believe that bit as well] to verify electronic voting. Labour has engaged two branch secretaries."

We were right and the Minister was wrong.

Fair play to the Dutch who at least showed Dutch courage.

That is what the Minister said. The point was that the truth of the report commissioned from two branch secretaries by the Labour Party has been borne out in all respects. Although this Minister was warned by among others, independent experts outside the House, he, like his predecessor, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, insisted on ploughing ahead.

With the support of the House.

The current Minister, Deputy Roche, completes the line-up of The Three Stooges. Has this Cabinet sub-committee reported? If not why is Deputy Roche speaking on television and issuing press releases to the effect it has been decided to use this system but not in the general election? Is the implication that it is alright to use it in the European election but not in a general election? The Taoiseach says the report of the commission was comprehensive. It certainly was. It was a comprehensive indictment of the system's reliability and confidentiality to be used in these circumstances after spending €52 million of taxpayers' money on it.

Finally, one of the commission's most alarming findings was that a testing of the count software found that where two or more candidates were tied and one had to be eliminated the software eliminated the wrong candidate. The Taoiseach tells us it is alright to use that system in the European and local elections. If the Cabinet sub-committee has not reported when will it do so and what is the Government position and policy on the waste of €52 million of taxpayers' money? The former Minister, Deputy Cullen, is still in office, Deputy Noel Dempsey is struggling with ESB price rises and Deputy Roche is preparing to join them.

Deputy Rabbitte should give way to the Taoiseach. He cannot have the seven minutes to himself.

Deputy Rabbitte is still in Opposition and will stay there. The Labour Party supported the system.

I supported a system that would work.

That was then this is now.

I will not take seven minutes to reply. The commission concluded that the main hardware components in the system, including the voting machines are good quality in design, robust against failure and well-suited to their purpose. That was the view of the commission on the expenditure. It was quite satisfied that the hardware that cost the money can work and operate effectively.

They are not in use because of the democratic system whereby the voting system for people to exercise their franchise needs agreement. Members of the Opposition were happy with that and then changed their minds.

No. That is not true.

We will accept a working system.

Some €500,000 has been spent on the election management software. The commission gave its views on how we could improve that. That is what the committee is doing.

Our Dutch colleagues and others have studied this position. An editorial in a Dutch newspaper this morning stated: "A return to the system of paper and red pencil sounds romantic, but it is only a spurious solution, since fraud is possible in any system."

It is all double Dutch.

We still use it.

That's right, we still use it.

As Deputy Rabbitte knows, thousands of votes in our elections that are not stamped take away the democratic franchise of the electorate, which proves that our silly old system is outdated.

The Taoiseach wants us to use an even sillier one.

We have to correct the software, which will cost €500,000 and try to move forward. Otherwise, this country will move into the 21st century being a laughing stock with our stupid old pencils.

The silly old Minister is the problem now.