The Minister for Social and Family Affairs recently said he was alarmed to find that so many poor people are in the grip of money lenders. He went on to say that the scale of the problem was alarming, given that the clients of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service are in debt this year to the tune of €65 million. The Minister said this was outrageous. In case the Taoiseach missed the interview, here is what the Minister said:

I've just discovered that a whole range of these people who are in debt, it's a new kind of debt. In the old days, it was money lenders, a back street kind of thing, but today these are official legal lenders and in one case they were charging 39% interest to people who were borrowing to pay for First Communion, bereavements, Christmas, family events or just to pay their rent.

He also said: "At the start of the 21st century, we still have an underbelly of debt in this country and I have instructed my Department to prepare legislation on this." The Minister went on to say that he was taking legal advice as to whether, in drawing up the new legislation, "outrageous and totally unacceptable rates of up to 39% can be curbed or even banned". I ask the Taoiseach when this legislation will appear.

I am delighted the Minister for Social and Family Affairs can be with us. I met a woman in Cork last week who told me that every time the Minister, Deputy Brennan, gives a television interview, her dog licks the television set.

I hope that is all the dog does.

Every time the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform gives an interview, the dog barks uncontrollably.

What does the dog do when Deputy Rabbitte appears? Does he run around in circles?

He pays close attention.

Even the dogs on the street support the Minister for Social and Family Affairs when he puts on his sincere face. During this very sincere period, he promised legislation to curb and ban interest rates. When will the legislation be introduced and will it ban interest rates?

Since the interview, the Minister was corrected by his officials and told that he could not do what he proposed. The position has now changed to one where he is introducing new legislation to renovate the Money Advice and Budgeting Service. When will that legislation be prepared? The Minister has said he has instructed his officials to draw it up. However, if one examines today's Order Paper, No. 3 refers to the Money Advice and Budgeting Service Bill 2002.

The Deputy's time has concluded.

This Bill was published in March 2002, re-entered on the current Government's schedule and has remained there for the past four years without ever having been brought before this House. However, in his weekend round of interviews the Minister told Ursula Halligan that he has instructed his officials to the effect that poor people are in debt and that he would introduce new legislation to deal with it. What order is this new law and when will Members see it?

The Deputy is like a dog with a bone.

As for the two pieces of legislation, some time ago the Minister decided the legislation listed and the heads of that Bill were unsatisfactory. He announced some time ago that he would introduce a different, more comprehensive Bill to deal with the issue of loans. He was referring to legalised loans rather than to moneylenders, as many of the organisations in question are licensed. He stated he believed there was a different way of dealing with the issue and sought legal advice to do so. This is all that was engaged in this respect.

The new legislation is listed to come before the Government shortly. As we do this time every year, the Minister has been talking to all the relevant groups regarding their pre-budget submissions and hopes to bring forward the terms of his legislation to the Government shortly.

The point is that while Deputy Rabbitte raised a number of issues, poverty and social exclusion still has a significant impact on a certain group. It has been highlighted for some years that it is not good enough for us to deal with such matters simply on an administrative basis and that legislation is required. The question is whether it is possible to legislate for such issues and legal advice has been sought in this regard.

To the best of my knowledge this was considered approximately 20 years ago. At that time, the view was that one could not legislate for such issues, particularly as a number of the organisations in question are licensed. They operate under Acts of this House and must be examined under consumer legislation. I do not know the answer to the question as to whether one can act. The Minister believes he can bring forward this legislation based on financial advice and is committed to introducing a new Bill. He intends to bring its terms before the Government around the time of the introduction of this year's social welfare Bill.

I agree with the Taoiseach that a poverty problem exists and that some people are in the grip of moneylenders and pay high interest rates. In a society based on credit, some people cannot get access to credit from conventional institutions and therefore resort to moneylenders, for which there is a premium to be paid. I do not dispute any of that. However, I asked the Taoiseach about the legislation promised by the Minister to ban or curb such exorbitant interest rates and he now tells me that no such legislation is contemplated.

As for the refurbishment of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, it is odd that the Government published a Bill in this respect in March 2002 that has never been introduced to the House on Second Stage and that Members are now informed that the Minister finds it to be defective. Although he did not do so in the past four and a half years, it is claimed he will bring in legislation in the four and a half months left to him.

The Deputy's time has concluded.

I find this lacks credibility. Although the Taoiseach stated that advice has been received over the years to the effect that one cannot legislate for this issue, why has the Minister claimed he can do so?

For example, the Money Advice and Budgeting Service could set up a scheme to extend the facilities of the credit union movement——

Absolutely.

——to have targeted and tailored loans available to those people who find themselves in a hole regarding money to pay for rent, for Christmas, for first Holy Communion or whatever.

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Forgive me for being somewhat sceptical that if the Minister has not done it in four and a half years, he will do so in four and a half months.

He got his headline.

As Deputy Rabbitte is aware, there are, on the face of it, powers to deal with a number of these issues under several legislative measures. However, they have not proven to be effective over a long time. While the Deputy noted that the Bill is from 2002, the Bill that we had approved is from the late 1990s as the issue was discussed in the late 1990s and in 2000. In the view of the Minister's officials, the Bill in question can be improved considerably.

As for the legislation regarding the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, while there are no rocket science issues involved, it is a question of being able to table a Bill with the legal powers to in some way curtail, prevent and control legally based organisations in such a way that they cannot levy punitive interest rates on those who are, as the Deputy correctly noted, marginalised, excluded or affected. I refer to those who find themselves with no alternative except to borrow what are usually relatively small amounts of money, but who pay exorbitant rates. It is a question of introducing legislation that can do something in this regard.

The Minister has advised me that he awaits this legal advice. However, the Deputy and I are aware that this has been attempted since the 1960s, back in the days when money launderers and moneylenders operated in this city and elsewhere. To my knowledge, an effective way of dealing with them — when legalised — has not been found. There is an effective way of dealing with illegal operators who operate outside the system. It is a question of whether this can be done. This is the point on which the Minister is waiting. The difficulty or delay does not lie with the remainder of the proposals regarding the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, other initiatives and whether credit unions can help — credit unions are already very helpful in this regard. It is a question of whether one can control or curtail such people. When the Minister receives his advice in this regard, he will be able to proceed with the Bill.