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Dáil
‹ Leaders’ Questions.

Nursing home care funding and family homes

Summary

Rabbitte challenged the Government’s nursing home funding arrangements, arguing that legislation could force older people to sell or remortgage their family homes. The Taoiseach defended a proposed fairer scheme, saying contributions would be capped and deferred until after a person’s lifetime, and outlined additional funding for residential and home care; Opposition members disputed its safeguards and fairness.

Last week the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children put through the Health (Nursing Homes) (Amendment) Bill 2006, which permits nursing homes to cause clients to sell their family home. He said he had no flexibility on this and he was doing so on the instruction of the Cabinet and on the advice of the Attorney General. There is now statutory underpinning to force the sale of the family home if one's parent is in a nursing home. Yesterday, the Minister for Health and Children announced a new scheme, which provides for a charge to be levied against the family home. It is not clear whether the senior and junior Ministers are ad idem on this or whether the junior Minister was being hanged out to dry or where we stand, but there is no clarity about it.

The scheme the Minister announced contains a number of fundamental changes. For example, nobody can be referred to a nursing home unless he or she has been medically assessed. In the normal course of events, having been medically assessed, one can be referred to an acute hospital or a nursing home. If one is referred to an acute hospital, there is no facility to compel the sale of the family home or to make a charge against it, but there is if one is referred to a nursing home. Why is the family home only included for the purposes of the means test because a person is old? Will the Taoiseach explain to the House why such a distinction is made between one type of medical institution and another? One may not enter a nursing home until one has been medically assessed, so what happens to the rest of our older people? Are they left alone to bear the entire cost of private residential care or will the Taoiseach tell me they will be eligible for home care packages? What home care packages will these people be eligible for and where are they?

In terms of the charge that can be levied, where does the carer left in the family home stand while the person being cared for is in a nursing home? What is to stop people transferring assets when so advised? Why should a person, because he or she is old, live in fear of remortgaging or selling his or her house? Why did the Government enact a law last week permitting the sale of the family home if it is not the intention to resort to that law at some stage? Some of the Taoiseach's backbenchers do not have time to follow every piece of legislation that passes through the House and the legacy being left by the Progressive Democrats is only beginning to dawn on them. The Taoiseach should now perform the sort of U-turn he has done on a number of issues recently, before old people are caused greater anxiety by the situation the Government has created.

Comment on this

I do not need to debate last week's legislation but the arrangements enacted in this case to support nursing home residents have been in place since 1993. Deputy Rabbitte's colleagues pointed out at the time the legislation was going through that it was deeply unfair. People with the same means and care needs can face greatly different costs in public and private homes and the Government decided a new, fairer deal should be created. It will take a year for this initiative to put that in place but the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, outlined the scheme on Monday.

In accordance with Towards 2016, the plan will ensure the same level of support for public and private nursing home residents and will involve co-payments between care recipients and the State. It will ensure that care is affordable for all, which is not the case at present as some people are forced to remortgage and sell their homes.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach will be putting sons and daughters out on the street.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I ask Deputies to be silent and allow the Taoiseach to speak. Deputy Rabbitte was entitled to two minutes speaking time and had four and a half minutes to submit his question. The Taoiseach is entitled to be heard in silence.

Comment on this

I was asked approximately 20 questions. I merely mentioned that Deputy Howlin, as Minister, introduced this scheme and sought to point out its unfair elements.

Comment on this

Who was Minister for Finance at that time?

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I ask Deputy Stagg to be silent.

Comment on this

This plan will ensure that care is affordable for all and that nobody will be forced to sell or remortgage his or her home to pay for care, which is not the case at present. A major change is that, in future, when a person makes his or her contribution the State will meet the balance of costs and take the risks associated with price increases. The scheme will be transparent with the same standardised means of assessment of need and individual contributions will be based on income and assets. The individual will be expected to contribute 80% of disposable income at the time of receipt of care. Most old people have modest incomes and the average income of a person over 65 years of age in 2006 has been calculated to be €234 per week.

Deputy Rabbitte said this will apply only to old people going to nursing homes but, at present, it does not relate to age and would be the same for a person below 65 years of age. A deferred charge of up to 5% of residential costs will apply. At present, many people applying for subvention must produce 5% of the value of their houses in cash for an indefinite period of care. This is very unfair, causes great distress and makes it an almost impossible target for people to meet.

Comment on this
Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

Perhaps the Taoiseach could take the roofs from their houses.

Comment on this

Under the new system no cash based on a house's value will be required in the lifetime of the individual. The charge will be limited and will be deferred until a settlement is reached regarding an estate.

Comment on this

What about sons and daughters in the house?

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Wall should be aware that this is Leaders' Questions.

Comment on this

If a member of the family lives in the house, payment can be deferred.

Comment on this

That is not what the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, said.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Stagg may not answer on behalf of the Taoiseach and he is not the leader of the Labour Party. I fail to understand why he is interrupting proceedings to this extent.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach is not answering the questions very well.

Comment on this

Despite the interruptions I am trying to answer Deputy Rabbitte's questions. Nursing homes will be approved based on quality and price and a medical assessment will apply, the operation of which the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, has outlined.

Regarding quality standards, the homes must be registered and satisfy inspections carried out as we have had a number of debates in this House during this session on the importance of assessment and inspections.

A new residential care unit within the National Treatment Purchase Fund will be established and will negotiate fixed prices with private nursing homes bringing stability in the area. Legislation will be required on this next year and Members will have plenty of time to give their points of view.

Comment on this
Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

The Taoiseach should try to get through the election first.

Comment on this

The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, said recently that there will be a consultation process. Importantly, the basic rate of subvention for 2007 will be increased to €300 per week, which will cost an extra €85 million overall.

Deputy Rabbitte asked where the home care packages are and we have announced residential care funding of more than €400 million for day care and home care packages for this year and next year.

Comment on this

It is not true to say that this applies to this year.

Comment on this

We are putting a great deal of resources into that scheme. Last week's budget included 2,000 home care packages and the full year cost of this is €55 million. An additional 780 hours of home care services at a cost of €18 million has been provided for and many additional people will work under these home care packages.

Comment on this
A Deputy

Where is the money going?

Comment on this

The tax inspectors will be going to funerals.

Comment on this
A Deputy

Deputy Ring will be there before them.

Comment on this

They will never get to as many as Deputy Ring does.

Comment on this

Deputy Rabbitte asked how many additional people will be employed in services for the elderly next year and this figure will be just short of 1,000. There will be €120 million for services for old people and a further €50 million the following year, giving a total cost of €170 million. I can see nobody on the Opposition bench is interested in what we do for the elderly.

Comment on this
Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

This is all smoke and mirrors to get the Taoiseach through the election.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I have called the leader of the Labour Party and Deputy O'Keeffe might allow him put a question.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach says it is wrong that, at present, people may be forced to remortgage or sell the family home. That is exactly what the Government is providing for with the action it has taken. If the Taoiseach wants to say it went through the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and that Members were fully aware of what they were doing, so be it.

Comment on this

The Progressive Democrats won.

Comment on this

The situation is clear in terms of the price that will now be paid for the scheme, so I will only summarise it. With regard to the Taoiseach's remark about the regulations introduced by Deputy Howlin when he was a Minister in 1993 in the aftermath of the gutting of the health services by the outgoing Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government, the regulations introduced were consistent with the amount of money provided by the then Minister for Finance. The Minister for Finance at that time was the current Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern.

Comment on this

The Labour Party must have been following the new agenda.

Comment on this

The Government gave us the new agenda last week.

Comment on this

It introduced a death tax.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Rabbitte without interruption.

Comment on this
Batt O'Keeffe Mr. B. O’Keeffe Fianna Fáil

Deputy Rabbitte was still on the old agenda.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Members on the Government side should allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption.

Comment on this

That was a rabbit punch.

Comment on this

Age Action Ireland states:

Older people, many of whom have paid their taxes for 40 years, did so in the belief they had a social contract with the State which included provision for their basic health needs. That contract cannot now be torn up. In many cases, older people have spent their entire savings to pay their nursing home bills and their home is their last asset.

Age Action Ireland believes that people of all ages should be treated equally by the State when it comes to health care. If a person in their 30s or 40s were to become seriously ill, leaving them in need of nursing home care for the rest of their lives, the State would not force them to sell the family home. Neither should older people in need of nursing home care.

The Labour Party concurs with Age Action Ireland. People should not be forced to remortgage or sell the family home, yet that is what the Government is doing to sons and daughters in many cases, with the result that older people are being caused needless anxiety and distress.

Comment on this
Noel Dempsey Mr. N. Dempsey Fianna Fáil

Deputy Rabbitte is causing anxiety by misrepresenting the issue.

Comment on this

It is another of Deputy Rabbitte's famous letters.

Comment on this

The Minister of State should read the legislation.

Comment on this

There is not yet any legislation.

Comment on this

The House will have plenty of time to debate the details but what is wrong with the current system, according to the detailed document which the Minister of Health and Children published the other day, is that although only 4.6% of people over the age of 65 are in nursing homes, a sizeable number of those have had to use their entire savings and assets, including a property, to access comparatively low levels of accommodation.

Comment on this
Olivia Mitchell Ms O. Mitchell Fine Gael

They will still have to spend their entire savings.

Comment on this

They were subjected to the full force of the law last week.

Comment on this

Let the Taoiseach answer.

Comment on this

Why did the Government introduce it?

Comment on this

They will have to remortgage their houses.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

Comment on this

Why, when I try to reply to Deputy Rabbitte, does the rest of his party make noise? I just want to explain to Deputy Rabbitte, who asked a good question, that it is fundamentally unfair to force a person to use his or her savings and income and I think the Deputy would agree. We are trying to design a system for the future that will make sure there are equal——

Comment on this
Olivia Mitchell Ms O. Mitchell Fine Gael

It is equally unfair to everybody now.

Comment on this

Everybody's house will be at risk.

Comment on this

I ask Deputies to listen.

Comment on this

It is hard to listen to the Taoiseach.

Comment on this

People will be treated equally——

Comment on this

That is what is wrong.

Comment on this

——in all ways and while a person would make a contribution to a capped amount, it could not be taken during his or her lifetime. We could debate that point but the basis of what we are doing is to end the situation in which an old person in one part of the country is treated fundamentally differently from someone in another part of the country on the same income and in the same circumstances.

Comment on this

They will share the misery.

Comment on this

That is what we are trying to do. If we have not got every little bit of it right, we have plenty of time to legislate.

Comment on this

The Government made it law last week.

Comment on this

We are trying to bring prices——

Comment on this

Old people are being directed to private nursing homes.

Comment on this

It was made law last week.

Comment on this

Deputy Stagg could learn if he listened. We are trying to work on a number of fronts to provide better regulated and inspected accommodation and to find better home care packages, more home care hours and better facilities for the elderly. We are going to spend €1 billion on that, while at the same time providing a system in which people can have certainty. We will have a legislative opportunity during 2007 to deal with the issue but it is fundamentally unfair now and we are doing our best and damnedest to make it fair for the future.

Comment on this

Is that not a good idea?

Comment on this

The Government continues to discriminate against older people.

Comment on this

What are the Labour Party's policies?

Comment on this

The Government is ageist.

Comment on this
Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

It is a whitewash.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Comment on this

I see the Government's need to get through the election.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Leaders' Questions are confined to the three leaders in Opposition. There is no provision for backbenchers from either side of the House to continue to interrupt.

Comment on this

There are about six interrupters opposite.

Comment on this
Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Ó Caoláin without interruption.

Comment on this