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Dáil
‹ Leaders’ Questions.

Crime and criminal justice measures

Summary

Kenny argued that crime, drugs and weapons were widespread, criticized the Government’s record and called for measures including electronic tagging and tougher bail rules. The Taoiseach disputed Kenny’s account of crime trends, defended Garda and prevention efforts, and outlined proposed bail, sentencing, detention and other criminal justice changes, while rejecting claims that the problem was as pervasive as the Opposition said.

In the past 15 months, I have attended 70 public meetings in various places around the country. I am appalled, which is not too strong a word, at the complete inability of the Government to deal with the issue of crime on our streets and the fear that is present in so many areas. People cannot walk the streets of many towns and cities in safety.

Criminals in this country are now importing the most sophisticated weaponry one could imagine by the tonne. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, with his hysterical rantings on an occasional basis, waves another sheet of paper containing another plan. His last plan was produced in November 2005 and consisted of three pages of detailed measures to be implemented to deal with criminals. Every time there is a serious issue, another plan is produced. Every time an innocent person is gunned down, it is a watershed or the sting of a dying wasp and another plan is produced.

Violent crime has surged over the past three years and the response from Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats in Government has been simply pathetic. There is no war on crime but there should be a war on crime. If the Taoiseach will not do it, I will. We need action now. In the past 12 months in economically strong Ireland, murder has increased by 43%, gun crime has increased by 39% and rape has increased by25%. Unfortunately, there has never been a better time to be a violent criminal in this country. The Taoiseach and the absent Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform have done nothing but talk about plans, plans and more plans. What is the Taoiseach's response today in view of the fact that last year, there were 66 homicides, 26 of which were gun-related? Gun culture in Ireland in 2007 is simply out of hand. I assume we will get another litany of expenditure in this area when what is needed is action. Over the past 15 months, we have pointed out serious issues to the Taoiseach which he could have addressed but did not.

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I hope Deputy Kenny is not against action in these areas.

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That is a brilliant stroke.

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We see this every day.

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A Deputy

There is no action over there.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

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He has not delivered yet.

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Non-action and reaction.

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Will the Opposition give poor Deputy Kenny a chance? Deputy Kenny knows the figures he has quoted are just made up. The Central Statistics Office produces the figures. I checked and I am not allowed to use the unparliamentary term for it. The Deputy knows it was a totally made up, twisted load of lies.

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The Ceann Comhairle should tell the Taoiseach to withdraw the word "lies". He would tell me to do it.

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I withdraw the word "lies".

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On a point of order, the Ceann Comhairle insists that any other Member should withdraw the word, no matter how well deserved.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Stagg, there is no point of order, except from the person who submitted the question.

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Is that a new rule?

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Would the Taoiseach like to withdraw it?

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach has already withdrawn it.

I intend to ask Members who continue to interrupt to leave the House. It is grossly unfair to Deputy Kenny who submitted a Leaders' Question if there are interruptions and then there is not time to reply to the question. I ask Members to allow business to proceed in a normal, orderly and correct fashion in a parliamentary democracy, which is that the speaker called by Chair speaks and nobody else.

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Deputy Kenny raised two issues. He outlined figures, which I must correct. According to the CSO census data and inter-census estimates of population, the crime rate per thousand of population dropped from 26 in 2003 to 24.5 last year. The figures for 2004 and 2005 were 24.5 and 24.8, respectively. The comparative crime rate per thousand a decade ago was 27.8. The figures show a welcome decrease in the high number of burglaries, which is down 14.6%; theft from the person, down 22%; and a decrease of 34% in detection of firearms, which contributed to a reduction of 3.4% in the discharge of firearms. I am giving the correct figures, as per the CSO.

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Because they are more acceptable.

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Last November the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform stated he would bring forward further legislative proposals because of a number of issues that had arisen relating to bail, sentencing, the right to silence and so on. The proposals have been in draft form and have been worked out in the Department. We also said we would prepare legislation on a DNA database. The House called for such updating. It has been agreed that fingerprints, like DNA samples, may be retained indefinitely and the Garda will have access to a much larger intelligence source. Over the past two years there was condemnation that our database was behind other countries and our legislative base was not adequate. In November when we discussed these issues, questions arose regarding detention periods, particularly the detention period associated with tiger kidnappings.

The Minister's proposals are in the criminal justice Bill. We have introduced a large number of Bills but this legislation will update them and it will be tougher. As Deputy Kenny said, we are dealing with more sophisticated criminals who are big into drug trafficking, firearms and other gangland activity. That means, periodically, one must do things that, on civil libertarian grounds, one would not normally do. The initiatives will toughen up the bail and sentencing provisions and provide for new offences.

These issues were considered in drafting previous criminal justice legislation but it was considered that a tougher line than was necessary would have resulted. However, because of the gangland crime last year, we must take that line.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

The Government has not done that.

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I expected Deputy Kenny to welcome these proposals rather than question the Minister's bona fides.

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The Taoiseach has been travelling around the country. Cocaine, cannabis, heroin and ecstasy are available in every townland, parish, village and city. Apparently, if one wants a snort or a shot of these drugs, one will have it within ten or 15 minutes anywhere. So much for zero tolerance.

The Taoiseach referred to a reduction in burglary figures. One can break into a house — many are empty during the day — and cause €500,000 worth of damage but it is not a burglary unless something is stolen. The reason burglary figures are down is they are being deliberately massaged. It is no longer categorised as a burglary if houses are broken into and vandalised but nothing is stolen.

I refer to three figures from last year — 33, 595 and 97. The figure 33 refers to the number of people charged with homicide who were out on bail. The figure of 595 refers to the number of people charged with assault who were out on bail and 97 refers to the number of people charged with sexual offences who were out on bail.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Deputy's time is concluded.

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Every one of them stood in a court and had their applications for bail granted. What kind of a country is the Taoiseach running? We proposed in the House on several occasions that judges be given the right, on the advice of a garda and on the basis of Garda evidence, to electronically tag criminals where serious offences are involved. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was out of the blocks within 15 minutes saying this was rubbish and this could not be done.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Deputy's time is concluded. He has gone well over his time.

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A total of 33 people charged with homicide, 595 charged with assault and 97 charged with sexual offences were out on bail last year. Where is the war on crime we have been promised? Where is the right of a judge to tag electronically if necessary or the right to earn remission in jail without a quarter of the sentence being completed before the criminal enters prison? Where is the evidence that the Taoiseach's Government and his hysterical Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform are capable of dealing with criminals? Criminals are not quaking in their boots. They laugh at the inability of the Government to deal with this.

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Deputies

Hear, hear.

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I remind the Deputy that people are innocent until they are proven guilty. People who come before the courts are entitled under our Constitution and the law of the land to make their case. It is another issue if the Deputy is asking that everybody who comes before the courts should be locked up and he can implement that.

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Paul Connaughton Mr. Connaughton Fine Gael

Deputy Kenny did not mention that.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

They can be remanded in custody.

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I also remind the Deputy of the principle of separation of powers. All those who came before the courts did not look to me to ask what happened. It is fair enough to ask me whether we should stiffen our bail laws and that is precisely what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will do in the criminal justice Bill. These issues were examined previously but the House refused to toughen the bail laws many times because of concerns.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

The Minister ridiculed such proposals.

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We held a referendum.

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Today's proposals will make it more difficult to obtain bail in drug trafficking, firearms and other cases related to gangland activity.

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Tell us about them.

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A senior garda can give his opinion that a bail application should be refused on the grounds that it is his opinion that the person will commit serious offences if granted bail. The applicant may be required to give a statement of his assets at home and abroad; his income and the sources of his income; his previous criminal record; and any offences committed while on bail. Applications for serious offences will generally be heard in the Circuit Court rather than the High Court with a right to a full appeal to the High Court. Many will believe that these proposals are too tough.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

Perhaps they do not go far enough.

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Similar proposals have been examined many times previously and Members have rejected such proposals many times.

On sentencing, there will be tighter controls to monitor post-release activity and enhanced penalties will be provided for those who re-offend within seven years of a previous serious offence. Further guidance will be provided on the circumstances where the mandatory minimum sentence will apply in cases involving firearms and drug trafficking.

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What a manifesto after ten years.

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New offences will be created, which will be aimed at those who assist and facilitate gangland bosses. It will be a serious offence to have cash or articles without being able to account for them and there will be changes relating to the right to silence. The law will be updated and clarified and, as a result, a suspect will be in no doubt about the implications of not giving a full account when asked by the Garda. On detention periods, persons arrested for a serious offence of the type associated with tiger kidnappings may be held for up to seven days, the same as is currently the case for drug trafficking. I already referred to DNA fingerprints.

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That proposal was voted down.

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In reply to Deputy Kenny, these kind of tough measures are necessary because in some cases there are problems with gangland crime.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

The last sting of a dying Government.

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Paul Connaughton Mr. Connaughton Fine Gael

Why did the Government not introduce these measures before now?

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I do not believe we should say crime is rampant and there are serious drug problems in every village, community and locality because that is not the case.

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There is.

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There is no hope for Fine Gael anyway.

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There is not.

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The Taoiseach should wake up to it.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Kehoe should allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

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A relatively small proportion of our population is involved with drugs.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has had five years.

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The attempt to almost try and entice young people who are not involved in drugs to become involved——

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The Taoiseach will find out if he goes into villages.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Kehoe.

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The Taoiseach is wrong. He is misleading the House.

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——is an irresponsible approach.

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There are major problems in cities and towns.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Chair has asked Deputy Kehoe not to interrupt.

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Deputy Kehoe almost wants it to be that way.

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The Taoiseach is scraping the barrel.

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The Taoiseach said there are no drugs in the country.

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We should support the efforts of the Garda and others in the various schemes aimed at drug prevention to try to eliminate the problems we have and not overstate or exaggerate the severity of the problem in communities. The situation is not as the Deputies portray it.

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We do not need to use exaggeration.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

The Taoiseach is not facing the facts.

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Paul Connaughton Mr. Connaughton Fine Gael

His head is in the sand.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I call Deputy Rabbitte. He should be allowed to speak without interruption.

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It is a dangerous posture.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Durkan is not the Leader of the Labour Party. Deputy Rabbitte should be allowed to speak without interruption.

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