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Dáil
‹ Leaders’ Questions.

Public spending waste and voting machines

Summary

Rabbitte challenged the Government over public spending waste, focusing on the €62 million electronic voting machines, whether they would be used and what would happen to them otherwise; he also cited other spending as evidence of waste. The Taoiseach acknowledged embarrassment about reverting to paper ballots but blamed opposition objections for preventing machine use, defended the Government’s wider spending record and said improvements to the system required agreement in the House.

Will the Taoiseach tell the House if there will be an audit of the Government's waste of taxpayers' money? How many hundreds of millions of euro does the Government reckon it has wasted in the past five years?

It is solely the prerogative of the Taoiseach to decide when the election is called — we all accept that — but whenever that happens, will we use electronic voting? If the answer is "no", why did we spend €62 million of taxpayers' money on electronic voting machines that we do not propose to use? We have them now, we tested them in the last general election and they have been in storage since then. If we will not use them this time, when will we use them? How much is it costing us to store them?

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It is very dear in Waterford.

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The Comptroller and Auditor General reckons it costs approximately €1 million per year to store them, but I read that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, has now relocated most of them to a central location. Did we have to buy out the leases on the premises where the machines are being stored?

I saw the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, emerge sheepishly at a breakfast he bought for the esteemed members of the press last week in an attempt to induce them to accept his Ladybird fictional guide to the policies on this side of the House and to lecture us on economic competence. This is the same Minister who spent €62 million on machines that only Robert Mugabe would be interested in purchasing.

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An excellent analogy.

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This is the same Minister who seeks to lecture us on economic credibility. He was succeeded by my friend, the Minister, Deputy Cullen, who could not wait to get his hands on the machines either. The Government spent €62 million of taxpayers' money when there are people waiting for home help hours.

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And clean water.

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The €62 million would have provided the entire population of Galway with an excellent water service.

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They would not be able to spend it.

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One would think that in 2007 the people of Galway would be entitled to clean water. That could have been provided with the €62 million. There are so many things which could have been done, for example, for children with autism, the employment of child psychologists and to address the needs of people desperate for home help hours. We wasted €62 million on machines which the Taoiseach will tell me will not be used on 17 May. When, if ever, will they be used? We did not use them in the local or the European elections. The Commission on Electronic Voting found that the software was unreliable and that the machines were not adequately tested. Despite these findings, the Ministers, Deputy Noel Dempsey, Deputy Cullen and Deputy Roche, the storage Minister, will go before the people again and ask them seriously to vote for them. What kind of country is this?

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

I would like to put them in storage.

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What kind of country is this?

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Deputy's time has concluded.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

It is time to put them in storage.

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Perhaps we could recycle them.

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We will have to use the peann luaidhe.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Allow the Taoiseach to respond without interruption, please.

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The Deputy is right. I felt embarrassed a few evenings ago when I watched a country with a population of more than 60 million people receive the results of its highest poll ever — 85% of the population — within two hours.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

Voting on a Sunday.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption, please.

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That was only a few hours behind the timeframe in India with its population of 1.2 million.

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At least they held the election——

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They are lucky the Taoiseach was not in charge.

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I had to apologise to the people of Meath a few days ago that, despite this being a modern technologically driven country, with one of the biggest exporters of software in the world, we are reverting to the peann luaidhe.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

An 85% turnout — the Taoiseach should be ashamed of himself.

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If the Taoiseach is that good he should order that the machines be used; he is in charge.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Stagg, please allow your leader the courtesy of hearing the response to his question.

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With a bit of luck our election results will be available within about five days——

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

The people will not vote at all.

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How does the Taoiseach propose to get it right?

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Feel the tips of the Galway races.

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——as we count and check the bins and buckets to see if a vote blew off the file. It is an embarrassment. I hope that in the next Dáil we will be able to rid ourselves of the horrendous difficulties we experience in trying to be a modern country.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Ring is not the leader of the Labour Party.

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No, I am not.

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He might be.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach, without interruption, please.

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That would be of real benefit to Mayo.

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He is a man for all seasons.

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I am getting confused——

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

The Taoiseach has been confused for a long time.

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——with Deputy Rabbitte who said this morning that he would like the election to be held on 17 May, but I note all his constituency offices have issued letters stating they are reliably informed that the election will be held on 24 May. I will have a word with him later to find out on which date he would like it, but we can work that out.

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We have been ready for a year.

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On a serious note, we are spending more than €50 billion. I genuinely believe that, in terms of staff, health, education and infrastructure, this money is spent as efficiently as possible. There is always room for improvement, as is often highlighted by the Comptroller and Auditor General and internal audit departments.

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That is an understatement.

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There has been an enormous increase in spending on essential services in recent years, be it in respect of the elderly, health, education or improved infrastructure.

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What about the machines?

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What will the Government do with the voting machines?

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I asked the Taoiseach whether people will vote by way of electronic voting on this occasion, but I did not hear his reply. I heard him say he is embarrassed——

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

Rightly so.

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On the last day of this Dáil, it is the first time I have ever heard the Taoiseach admitting to being embarrassed, and he ought to be embarrassed. Some €162 million has gone down the drain, and that is symptomatic of the waste we have witnessed. The Taoiseach appears to be suggesting that because we are spending €50 billion we can afford to waste those millions. That is what the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, said when asked about PPARS.

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He did not say that.

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Some €162 million was wasted on PPARS and the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, responded that in the context of things, it is a very small amount of money. Many needs could have been addressed by these moneys which have been frittered away, yet the Taoiseach can only admit to being embarrassed and revert to his "give up your ould pencils" raiméis that he goes on with.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Deputy's time has concluded.

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Here we are at the end of ten years of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats in government and it has taken them until now to build 10 km of road without going dramatically over budget.

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The Deputy must be joking.

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What the people do not realise is that they have paid twice what they were told they would pay for three lines on the Luas and that they have received only two lines that do not connect up.

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The only bad connection around here is Fine Gael and the Labour Party.

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The record——

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The Minister, Deputy Cullen, needs to have a cigarette.

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He should keep his head down.

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Enough done, time to go.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

Fianna Fáil's No. 1 candidate, the Minister, Deputy Cullen, is top of the pops for incompetence.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Rabbitte, without interruption, please. I remind Deputy Rabbitte that on Leaders' Questions he is confined to one issue.

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Waste.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Rabbitte cannot go on about this at length. The Deputy has gone well over time.

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My opening sentence related to waste.

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The Ceann Comhairle is looking at waste.

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No matter where I look on the other side, I see it looking back at me, waste.

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Waste.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Rabbitte's time has concluded.

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It is a waste of taxpayers' money.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

They are a waste of space in government.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Minister, Deputy Cullen, should allow Deputy Rabbitte to conclude.

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It is remarkable that the Minister, Deputy Cullen, has the neck to put his head above the parapet.

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Everything about me is remarkable.

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He is the main architect of waste.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Minister should please allow Deputy Rabbitte to conclude.

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This is followed by consultants, consultants, consultants. The Government cannot make a decision about anything but employing as many consultants as it can.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I ask Deputy Rabbitte to conclude.

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How many consultants' reports have been implemented?

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

How many of them have been read?

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We are going to——

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Deputy Keaveney should not pick the last day of this Dáil to make her maiden speech.

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I made my first speech on my first day here.

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Are we to have electronic voting and, if not, what will be done with those infernal machines?

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We will use them to print money.

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Will the Taoiseach apologise to the Irish people for the waste of money involved? There are many other areas in which the Government has distinguished itself by wasting money. We are entitled to know, if this is the last day of this Dáil, whether we will vote by way of electronic voting. I ask the Taoiseach to tell us if that is the case. If not, what will be done with the machines?

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Johnny has been affected by them already.

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Deputy Rabbitte knows the answer to that question. A comprehensive report produced by an independent group highlights what needs to be done to make the machines workable. We can do that only through agreement in this House.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption, please.

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If the House did not want to play politics with it, we would not be the laughing stock of Europe and have 2 million people vote in an election using pencils.

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Jim O'Keeffe Mr. J. O’Keeffe Fine Gael

That is an admission.

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That is ridiculous. As I stated, I was embarrassed the other night when I watched how the French——

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More consultants.

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It was the Opposition's fault because it objected to using it.

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Rory O'Hanlon An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Taoiseach, without interruption, please.

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The Opposition should have taken a mature attitude to a voting system that worked particularly well in the last two elections. The voting worked perfectly. All the analysis showed the voting system worked perfectly, but politically the Opposition would not agree to it and it took off on a political exercise engaging people from around the world to find flaws with it. That is a disgrace. Any waste of money on the voting system lies at the Opposition's door.

Deputy Rabbitte raised some other issues. I do not accept his remarks in respect of the €50 billion that is being spent. The vast majority of that money goes to the approximately one million people in receipt of welfare payments, the 130,000 people employed in the health service, the 100,000 teachers and the Garda Síochána, the Army and others involved in a range of services. I do not believe, subject to there always being room for improvement, that this money is in any way wasted.

On transport, we have done an excellent job right across a range of infrastructural issues.

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Hear, hear.

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We have spent vast amounts of money on improving our road and rail network and on the Luas.

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The M50 is a good example.

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Let us be honest, Deputy Rabbitte and a group of his party members protested in Merrion Square a few years ago when we put the Luas on show.

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On stilts.

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All day long.

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The Deputy said then that we would never see Luas on the streets of this city.

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We nearly did not.

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That was his campaign. Some 26 million people have travelled on Luas. I predicted in this House that as soon as Luas was introduced everyone would stop giving out about it and ask for more lines and so on, and that is precisely what has happened.

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A Deputy

Hear, hear.

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Luas is being extended, a new metro system is being planned and carriageways are being built all over the country.

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More promises.

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We are becoming a modern country with modern infrastructure thanks to the excellent programmes introduced by this Government.

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