Taoiseach’s tribunal evidence
Kenny challenges the Tánaiste over the Taoiseach’s statements, income and tax issues before the tribunal, citing apparent discrepancies and ministerial commentary. The Tánaiste says the tribunal’s judges—not politicians—must evaluate the evidence, and criticises Fine Gael for making partisan assessments.
I was tempted to raise the readmission of Deputy Edward O'Keeffe to Fianna Fáil but——
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Fianna Fáil might need him shortly. I recognise that the Taoiseach is away on official business. I expect the Tánaiste will be in touch with him today and I would like him to remind the Taoiseach I have a number of serious questions I would like him to answer when he returns. In the Tánaiste's less than 100% support for the Taoiseach in this House yesterday he claimed I was jumping to conclusions, that I had assumed the role of the Revenue Commissioners and that I was determining people's guilt. I made the point that I was asking the Tánaiste questions about facts that had emerged from the Taoiseach's mouth.
Yesterday the Tánaiste came to a conclusion and made an assertion and said in response to Deputy Gilmore that the Mahon tribunal had a "bogus dollar" claim. What evidence has the Tánaiste to back up that assertion? What proof has he that this is a bogus dollar claim? If he does not have that evidence, is he prepared to withdraw that remark? Speaking for the Government last night, Deputy Fahey said the Mahon tribunal is involved in a witch hunt against the Taoiseach. Does the Tánaiste believe that the Mahon tribunal is engaged in a witch hunt against the Taoiseach, yes or no?
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I am not aware that is an accurate reflection of what Deputy Fahey said. Fine Gael is conducting a witch hunt. It is a political witch hunt that runs into sand regularly.
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I would listen to what the tribunal has to say about its workings and how we can best assist it. It is the best arbiter of how we should conduct ourselves on the proceedings there. In a formal statement at the beginning of this year the tribunal made it clear that it does not regard as helpful continuing evaluations on a weekly and daily basis, mostly from Fine Gael members in an effort to draw some partisan political advantage that might emerge. The tribunal has made it clear that is not helpful to the conduct of its proceedings. It affects the perception of fair play which the tribunal is anxious to uphold and which it will and must uphold.
The tribunals are not subject to the usual sub judice rules of court and hearsay and second-hand evidence can be brought forward. The allegation against the Taoiseach, on the basis of an assertion made by Mr. Tom Gilmartin, which has been of nine years standing, that he obtained a corrupt payment from Mr. Owen O’Callaghan, as far as I am aware has not been directly put to him yet. There is no supportive material in the interim to suggest it is true or has been corroborated.
On the bogus dollar claim, counsel for the Taoiseach does not agree with the theory the tribunal put forward. I do not often read the transcripts, but on that occasion it made the point that it was simply putting forward propositions, not advocating positions. The suggestion Deputy Kenny contends, that the tribunal holds that view, is not something even counsel for the tribunal suggests. It is simply putting a proposition to the Taoiseach for him to rebut it.
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The Tánaiste should read the transcripts.
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In Tullamore last weekend the Tánaiste said in one interview that the tribunal was able to do its work and was doing good work. The Taoiseach said the tribunal has a number of flaws. The Tánaiste did not answer the assertion he made yesterday that the tribunal has a bogus dollar claim. I understand it went through 1,200 permutations to arrive at its conclusion. How many did the Taoiseach's legal team deal with if the Tánaiste states in this House as a matter of fact that this is a bogus dollar claim? The Tánaiste has not said whether he believes that, as Deputy Fahey said last night on behalf of the Government, the tribunal is involved in a witch hunt against the Taoiseach.
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The statements made by Minister after Minister, including the greatest columnist of them all, the Minister, Deputy O'Dea, who has been making comments on this tribunal and its remit for a very long time, are the running commentaries.
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Deputy Kenny should keep it accurate. He should tell the truth for a change and try to be straight.
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We will take no lessons in the truth from Fine Gael members. They would not know the truth if it bit them.
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The Minister, Deputy O'Dea, takes his defence role seriously. Who is he defending?
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Fianna Fáil would know a lot about the truth.
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At last year's Humbert summer school in Ballina, the Tánaiste said that the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, was never the recipient of beneficial gain from his years in politics. Does the Tánaiste believe the statement of the chairman of the tribunal that it is investigating two and a half times the Taoiseach's known and admitted income in a 12-month period?
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The statement from the chairman of the tribunal that it was investigating two and a half times the Taoiseach's known and admitted income in a 12-month period.
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In today's terms, it is the equivalent of half a million euro.
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No, it is not. That is more dishonesty on the part of the Deputy and it is disingenuous of him.
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It is two and half times his known and admitted salary.
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Does the Tánaiste believe the statement of the chairman of the tribunal that it is investigating money received that was two and a half times his known and admitted income? In this House, the Taoiseach said that he had no tax issues, but at the tribunal he accepted that he had tax issues. In this House he said that there were no more accounts to be revealed, which is patently not the case given his evidence at the tribunal. He said that he would explain all the sources of all these moneys, but at the tribunal he either cannot or will not explain them. As his anointed successor, as Tánaiste and Minister for Finance and the person who will have to clean all this up, does the Tánaiste believe the Taoiseach's evidence, yes or no?
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In case he is under any misapprehension, I want to make it clear to Deputy Kenny that the Taoiseach is giving his evidence truthfully, the same as other people at the tribunal. The evaluation of that evidence will be decided upon by the judges who have been appointed by the Oireachtas, not by the Deputy who is neither qualified nor able to evaluate that evidence.
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Deputy Kenny is coming into the House every second day, asking whether I agree with this or that statement. If the man said it, I am sure it is true. That is what the judge is doing. That evidence has to be evaluated. It cannot be decided by Deputy Kenny. We will not have political mob rule in Parliament.
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The mob was out in force a few weeks ago.
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All the Deputy's efforts to try to distract the Government will not work. The Government will continue to do its work. The only person who is not doing anything apart from coming in and dealing with this matter is the Deputy. In fairness to this man, he has something to say about other things, but the Deputy has nothing to say.
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The Tánaiste has made my day. I hope I will make his day too.