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Dáil
‹ Leaders’ Questions.

Budget response and employment measures

Summary

Deputy Kenny challenges the Taoiseach over soaring unemployment, Government responsibility for the crisis and the need for urgent action, proposing VAT reversal, employer PRSI relief and loan guarantees for small businesses. The Taoiseach accepts the seriousness of job losses but insists employment measures must form part of a wider plan to raise revenue and restore the public finances.

I welcome the fact that the Government has belatedly recognised the need for a new budget to deal with the difficulties in our public finances. This is a matter for which the Fine Gael Party has been calling for the past number of weeks. I recognise the belated acceptance of that.

Dealing with the public finances is only one element of what is at play here. It is becoming increasingly evident that the consequences of failure to deal with the public finances directly impacts on the lives, hopes, plans and dreams of many people who are now facing unemployment or who are unemployed. Today in Bausch and Lomb in Waterford many families are waiting for news in respect of their futures. The briefings that were given today to the members of the Opposition parties, including Deputies Bruton and Burton, clearly indicate that the Government will have to look for approximately €5 billion gross between income tax and spending cuts, which is a truly phenomenal amount at this stage of the year.

I understand that the unemployment figures are due to be published very shortly. I am sure the Taoiseach has been briefed on them. Will he indicate to the House, as he did on the last occasion, the numbers of unemployed at the end of February and whether they exceed the record level of unemployment of 327,800 in January? Will he comment on that?

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As I said, on the basis of the Exchequer returns, the Government position in January was that we would take savings of €2 billion. It was agreed in the framework that was what we should do. On the basis of the February returns, this economic convulsion confirms that further measures are needed. We have made it clear that we have to work within the figures we submitted to the European Commission in terms of our determination to bring order to our public finances. Whatever measures are required or necessary will be taken by Government to achieve that because, as has been said, the prerequisite for a return to the economic fortunes of the country is the putting in order of our public finances, and it is also important from the point of view of our international creditability.

The live register figure, as the Deputy said, will be announced by the Central Statistics Office at 11 a.m. The figure is 354,400, which is an increase of 26,500, or 8%, on last month. Some 44,000 are receiving payment in respect of part of a week and the unemployment rate for February, therefore, is expected to be 10.4%.

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These are truly shocking figures. With 354,000 unemployed, or an 8% increase since last month, we have never in the history of the State been in such a position. This is truly shocking.

I noticed that in the past ten days the chief executive of Allied Irish Banks apologised to the Irish people for bad loan situations. This morning the chairperson of IL&P apologised for mismanagement and mistakes made in IL&P. The Taoiseach's party has been in Government for 11 years. Does he accept responsibility for any of this, given his term as Minister for Finance and now as Taoiseach? As the Minister for Finance said, this is where the people wanted us to go. The Tánaiste, who is not present, said only last week that the public finances are under control. Some 354,000 people are out of work and €5 billion gross, between spending cuts and increases in taxation, is being sought this year. Does the Taoiseach accept responsibility for any of this or is he prepared to say he is sorry to the Irish people for the Government overseeing obscene wastage of public money on many projects over the years——

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Deputies

Hear, hear.

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——which has caused anger among the people.

The Taoiseach said in the House a number of weeks ago that he will do it his way. Clearly, his way is not working and he knows that. Last night in the House, the Minister for Finance asked other parties to come up with their ideas. If the Taoiseach wants to move out of that seat altogether, we will sort out this.

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Deputies

Hear, hear.

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However, when we put forward ideas, they have been scorned and thrown out by Fianna Fáil. I have given the Taoiseach four proposals previously and he need not give me the same answer again in respect of these. I said, first, the VAT increase should be reversed.

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Deputies

Hear, hear.

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Reversing that tax increase would increase confidence in spending here. Second, PRSI payments should be abolished for employers who take on new employees in 2009. As the Taoiseach knows, it costs €20,000 per job loss. Third, a loan guarantee scheme should be set up for small businesses in distress — this is critical. Thousands of people are affected and they have approached Deputies on all sides of the House to advise that they cannot get credit, that the recapitalisation has not worked and that they need such a scheme to have the confidence to invest in their businesses and to retain and create jobs.

Fourth, as I said a number of weeks ago, the Taoiseach should rewrite the national development programme, frontload it with the infrastructural projects that are labour intensive such as school buildings, primary care centres and improvements outside every town and village in the country. Such projects would not require major international tenders. The Government should reprioritise the programme and frontload it with those labour intensive projects that will give people jobs and respect and will allow them to pay tax. They will restore some sense of confidence and belief that at long last decisions are being taken that will go some way to restoring progress for the economy.

Does the Taoiseach accept any responsibility? Is he prepared to apologise for what he has done and for the Fianna Fáil mismanagement? Is he prepared to take on board constructive proposals designed to create and retain employment, and in addition to restore some confidence and give the people a sense of belief that somebody is in charge and making decisions in the best interests of the economy?

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Deputies

Hear, hear.

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And an apology also.

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On the question of unemployment, of course one is very concerned and I am very concerned about the fact that unemployment has been rising so fast. It is up to 10.4% as of the February figure. We had unemployment back in the 1980s of more than 17%, but I do not want to make a debating point of that. Thankfully, there are still approximately 1.8 million people working in this economy.

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That was also a Fianna Fáil creation. Some of us are here long enough to remember.

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John O'Donoghue An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Allow the Taoiseach to finish.

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We need to be mindful that we need to try to maintain as many jobs as possible in present circumstances. Any rise in unemployment, of course, is a very unwelcome development. It is clear that the depth of this recession and the impact it is having worldwide in markets in which we need to trade means demand is less now than was the case in the past. That is having its effect in the real economy and we are seeing that on a daily and weekly basis. We need to address that from a competitiveness point of view.

The second point the Deputy raised related to our own particular responsibility for this matter. First, I take full responsibility for all decisions I have taken throughout my career as a Minister and as Taoiseach. I want to make that point very clear. Second, at the time much of the critique that was coming from that side of the House related to the failure by Government to invest even greater amounts of money into public services.

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Deputies

Hear, hear.

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The third point I would make is that we brought in ten surpluses in 12 budgets during that period.

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Where are they now?

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That went towards reducing debt — halving the debt and thankfully——

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Does the Taoiseach have any concept of humility?

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John O'Donoghue An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Deputies must let the Taoiseach finish.

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The important point to make regarding——

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The Fianna Fáil-led Government inherited the surplus.

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John O'Donoghue An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputy Kenny was listened to in silence and the Taoiseach must get the same respect from the House.

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It is very hard to listen to.

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They can leave the House.

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The important point to make regarding that matter is that basically the country has a strong balance sheet in terms of the relative low debt we have — although rising — but we have a very weak profit and loss account because our day-to-day expenditures well exceed our revenues. That is the issue we face. In the past increased public services were required as was increased capital investment, which was required to deal with the infrastructure deficit, a source of complaint by many on all sides of the House in terms of the growth that was being achieved in the economy. Employment creation was also high, some of which we are losing now. Even so, with more than 350,000 unemployed — every one of whom is too many as far as all of us are concerned — it represents 10% of the workforce when ten or 15 years ago it would have represented an unemployment rate of 20% and more. Our policies at that time were working for the economy. We are in a totally new situation now, as is every economy and country.

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Tell us about the property bubble and the Government's failure to regulate the banks. Is it suffering from amnesia on that?

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We want to be fair and honest. At the end of 2007 all economic forecasters in this country were talking about a minimum growth rate for 2008 of 2.5% and a maximum of 4%. So the idea that the economic convulsion, which has now beset the world economy and is affecting every country in the world, advanced economy and leading manufacturing economy in the world, was foreseeable in terms of its impact is not true. By the same token let me say that since the Government came into office on each occasion when it appeared there was a slippage in expenditure——

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The Government disappeared.

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In 2008 we came in on target for our expenditure. We have had a collapse in tax revenues both last year and continuing this year. That is having its impact in a way that we now need to address. On the basis of the Exchequer figures that appeared yesterday the Government made the immediate decision that we would bring forward a supplementary budget in the context of a wider stabilisation plan that is necessary so that we can outline to the people the likely political choices that need to be made by whatever Government is running the country in the coming years on the basis that we are in recession and the economy is contracting.

With regard to some of the measures the Deputy has proposed, in the coming weeks we need to consider the costs of some initiatives. I am sure parties will not only take up the opportunity of being briefed by the Department of Finance but will also seek costings for any ideas or proposals they believe would be appropriate at this time. Not only do we need to work out the costs and come up with the figure that meets the budgetary requirement, but we also need to work out the impact of those choices and ensure in the rather fragile economy we have today not only that the figures add up in terms of the mathematical issue but also assess the impact those choices will have and how they interact with each other. In other words, what is required is an overall budgetary framework that will make sense in the circumstances, which of course will in no way make it any less painful for the people in terms of implementing the decisions that are necessary.

To come to the four specific measures proposed by Deputy Kenny which have merit, I am sure, in terms of dealing with the budgetary situation it is highly unlikely that any of them meet the basic requirement of raising revenue. I agree we need to consider the demand side of the economy to establish if there is anything we can do not only to boost demand but at least to maintain demand at the lower level at which it is at the moment. However, the Deputy's suggestion of a loan guarantee scheme and the idea that any such proposals would raise revenue——

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They are not intended to.

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If on the Deputy's own admission they are not intended to raise revenue——

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They are intended to create jobs.

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——the impact of those proposals would be to widen the deficit rather than close it. This is the difficulty we all have.

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Does the Taoiseach understand about job creation?

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John O'Donoghue An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Let the Taoiseach finish.

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Let me finish and then the Deputy can come back on the point. The simple point I am making is that I accept we need to try to maintain jobs to the greatest extent possible. We need to provide support for enterprise and in that context, measures such as these need to be considered. However they also need to be part of a wider more integrated package that will also deal with the budgetary problem. Therefore while putting forward four initiatives such as those which have their attractions and their own merit——

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They are job creation measures.

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——they will also need to fit with the fact that we need to raise revenues and also address the expenditure issues that arise.

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Does the Taoiseach accept that they fit in?

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John O'Donoghue An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I call Deputy Gilmore.

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They are all leaders over there.

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The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, is no leader anyway.

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A man that spends small change on voting machines is no leader.

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John O'Donoghue An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Deputy should leave that aside now. I call Deputy Gilmore.

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Arrogance personified.

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John O'Donoghue An Ceann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

This is Leaders' Questions and only Deputy Gilmore is in order.

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