As I understand it, the plan is that the Government will use Government bonds to take off the hands of these property speculators and developers——

Deputy Gilmore is taking rubbish.

——the half finished apartment blocks we see everywhere, the empty hotels and office blocks and the land that was bought at exorbitant prices on borrowed money from the banks. This represents the so-called bad debts we are talking about.

It does not.

Yes, it does.

We are talking about assets, bad debts and toxic debts. The property that was bought by property speculators with borrowed money will now be bought back with Government bonds at taxpayers' expense.

That is nonsense.

What has Deputy Thomas Byrne to say about the corruption in east Meath?

Business people who are pushed to the pin of their collar to keep going or whose businesses have gone under because banks will not lend them the credit they need must wonder what the developers have at their disposal that they do not, given that the Government is prepared to take their property off their hands and relieve them of their bad debts.

Not only will the Government buy back the property these people speculated on in this country but it also intends to buy back the property on which they speculated abroad, including the shopping centres in Birmingham, the apartment blocks in Bulgaria, the hotels in Dubai and the retirement villages in Florida. We are told in the questions and answers document circulated yesterday that these properties will be bought back by the Government with Government bonds at taxpayers' expense.

Of the €80 billion to €90 billion the Government estimates these loans equate to on the books of the banks, how much relates to property abroad? Of the property abroad, can the Taoiseach tell us how much of it is property that was bought by Irish developers abroad and how much was bought by property developers abroad who borrowed the money from Irish banks? It is bad enough that we are buying up all these half finished developments in this country and the fields around towns and villages that will not be developed for many years but which may have been rezoned by the owners' friends on local councils. Can the Taoiseach explain to the Irish people why the Government is buying up property abroad which was speculated upon by property developers here and abroad? How much of the €80 billion to €90 billion is represented by property abroad?

The question of the categories and classes of assets is work that will be undertaken by the national asset management agency upon its establishment. It will work with the banks to see which are the appropriate assets to be taken over. What we had yesterday was a policy announcement. I made this point in the debate last night and I wish to put it clearly to the House once more.

The Taoiseach must be allowed to respond to Deputy Gilmore. The Deputy was listened to with respect and silence. I expect the same respectful silence for the Taoiseach.

For goodness sake, let him answer the question.

Much work has been undertaken by the National Treasury Management Agency, the Department of Finance and by those who advise both bodies, including PricewaterhouseCoopers, Jones Lang LaSalle and others who have been employed during the due diligence process in examining the loan books of the covered institutions. It is estimated by these people that the book value is of the order of €80 billion to €90 billion.

How can the Government introduce a scheme when it has no idea of the scope or extent of it?

There is a simple point to be made about this. Deputy Gilmore referred to the need to maintain jobs in this economy. If we are to maintain jobs and get back to the functioning economy we all want to see, there must be a functioning banking system. Every businessman trying to maintain and grow jobs requires access to sufficient credit in order to do his business and grow his enterprise.

It is expensive credit.

That is not possible at the present time due to the overhang in the banking system. It is what it is and it must be dealt with. Refusal to deal with it, as has been the Labour Party's view in regard to every proposal since we sought to deal with these problems——

That is not so.

The wrong people are being asked to pay for these mistakes.

Refusal to deal with it means the problem will continue and credit will not be available in sufficient funds to Irish business. We must deal with that problem. We are simply talking about transferring that problem into the national asset management agency which will work it out over a longer period. In respect of any loss that might arise as a result of that process, there will be a levy on those institutions in any case. We are seeking to protect the taxpayers' interest at every turn.

Who will pay for it?

The problem will not be resolved by simply complaining and not doing anything about it. It has to be resolved on the basis of the consensus advice available from both the National Treasury Management Agency and the Department of Finance.

The people have to pay.

Those who advise confirm that this is the best way to deal with the problem that we have. It is similar to what Sweden had to do in the 1990s——

The same people who provided the advice before.

——and to what other economies had to do when there was a banking crisis.

We will end up——

That is what we have to do. We must face up to it and get on with doing the job, taking the best advice from those who work for us in this area. If there is one agency that has been a resounding success in terms of carrying out the remit given to it by the State it is the National Treasury Management Agency.

That is correct. It picked up responsibility for 1977——

I have full confidence in that organisation setting up this agency for the purpose outlined so that we can try to get back to the real economic effects brought about by the current situation.

What about the proportion?

The Taoiseach will recall property valuations.

I call Deputy Gilmore, without interruption, please.

Let us return to the question — how much of the property that will bought up with Government bonds is property abroad?

It is worth nothing.

That is the question to which I would like an answer.

Nothing has been decided.

The Government has already estimated that the total amount will be €80 billion to €90 billion. The Government has engaged, since the introduction of the bank guarantee, PricewaterhouseCoopers to examine the banks' accounts. We have had reports and studies on the banks and due diligence. The Government has had since September, which is a long time, to identify what the banks have or do not have and the extent of bad debts on their loan books and so on.

I agree with the Taoiseach on the need to create jobs. Whatever justification there may be for all of this property that was speculated on and what contribution it may potentially have made to the Irish economy in terms of jobs if it were here, I cannot see what will be the contribution to the Irish economy if the property is abroad——-

That is a good point.

——or what will be the contribution to the Irish economy to have Government bonds used to buy up property abroad. We know the amount of bad debt is estimated to be €80 billion to €90 billion. I want to know how much of that is represented by properties abroad. I want an explanation on why the Government is going to use Government bonds, backed by the taxpayer, to buy up these apartments. This appears to be news to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cúiv.

The Deputy does not understand the process.

Clearly, it is news——-

Deputy Gilmore without interruption, please.

——to many of the Government Deputies. It is dealt with in Question No. 2 of the Government's questions and answers document——

The Deputy does not understand the process.

Explain the process.

——issued by the Department of Finance yesterday. I will quote it for the Deputy.

On page 3.

The question states: "Will land and development loans outside of Ireland be transferred to NAMA?"

Yes.

The answer to the question is: "Yes, land and development loans outside of Ireland will be eligible for transfer to NAMA."

Read on.

Here is the point.

If Deputy Gilmore reads on, he will see the answer to the question. Read on.

The Government should read its own document.

I must ask——

I have asked a question of the Taoiseach which I want him to answer.

The Government did not read its own document.

We read it last night. The Government did not read it before the budget.

The rationale is there.

The proportion is not given and Deputy Ó Cúiv knows that. He knows it in Irish and in English and he can tell his colleagues about it.

The Government——

Excuse me, Deputy Gilmore, I cannot allow this to descend into a farce. I must insist that any Member addressing another Member do so through the Chair. In any event, no Member other than——

The Ceann Comhairle should tell that to Deputy Martin.

I say it to the Minister, Deputy Martin and to everybody else to whom it applies. This is Leaders' Questions——

It is.

——and only Leaders may ask questions to which the Taoiseach responds.

The Ceann Comhairle should tell that to the Ministers.

That is the way it works.

It will be more of the same tomorrow and we are not looking forward to it.

I call Deputy Gilmore, without interruption please.

A Cheann Comhairle, we are here on a morning when working people on modest incomes are being screwed to pay for the mistakes made by Fianna Fáil during 12 years in government.

Hear, hear.

For six months now, in dealing with the banks and development, this Government has been protecting and cosseting friends who brought down the Irish economy.

Hear, hear.

Some of those friends have been investing and dabbling in property abroad. Guess what? They are now going to use the Irish taxpayer and Government bonds to bail out the developments, the bad debts incurred for developments in Bulgaria, Dubai, Florida, Latvia and so on, none of which would have contributed anything to the Irish economy.

I want to know from the Taoiseach how much of that €80 billion to €90 billion concerns property abroad?

That is a straight question.

I say to Deputy Gilmore, in all seriousness, I reject with contempt——

Answer the question.

As I said last night, we have a serious issue to deal with. We can have our agreements and disagreements on the way forward but I will not accept from any Deputy, however prominent——

Read the tribunal reports.

——any suggestion that we are doing anything other than seeking to protect the public interest of this country——

Read the tribunal reports.

——and to ensure we get back to an economy that continues to grow and to protect jobs.

I hold no brief for any individual inside or outside this House in this matter other than to discharge my responsibilities conscientiously.

How much property abroad is involved?

I regard with contempt the continuing innuendo the Deputy is quick to throw around.

Please allow the Taoiseach to finish his reply.

It does nothing for this debate or the country.

How much property abroad is involved?

What is the proportion?

I am sorry, I will not be barracked. I will try to answer the questions asked to the best of my ability. I want to make clear to Deputy Gilmore that if he contends there is any validity in what he has just said he is then making the same charge against those in the National Treasury Management Agency, the Department of Finance and everyone else who advises Government in this matter.

No.

That is not true.

That is how contemptuous that is. Hopefully, that is the last time we will have to listen to that type of cant and nonsense. I know what the Deputy's game is.

Answer the question.

It is a political tactic.

It is not a game.

It is a game. The Deputy is playing a very serious game with Ireland's reputation.

This is our country too.

The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

I want to make it clear that the purpose of this initiative is to try to get back to a situation whereby credit is provided to Irish business.

How much?

On the €80 billion to €90 billion book value, the National Treasury Management Agency will be in a position this afternoon to answer any questions in terms of detail in respect of this matter.

Six months.

It is clear to me and to the agency that the purpose of this is to clean up the balance sheets so that we can get back to good business. On the other matter regarding whether we are in a position to save the banks or whether we should be——

How much?

Deputy Quinn, please allow me to answer the question.

How much?

I have already answered that aspect of the question. I have stated that the National Treasury Management Agency will, this afternoon, provide any detail required.

Deputy Cowen is the Taoiseach.

I am Taoiseach and I am indicating to Deputy Quinn that the policy announcement made yesterday is the right approach to deal with this matter despite any objections he may have.

The Taoiseach should just answer the question.

How much?

It is the same as saying that we rather than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who provides guarantees to the Ulster Bank or HBOS in Ireland, should have taken them over. One either deals with the problem and the asset classes regardless of location in terms of cleaning up the banks or one does not. One either fixes the problem or does not. One either deals with the situation as it, or one does not. The Opposition is not interested in solving the problem——

We are.

How much?

The Government is interested in solving the problem.