Iarraim anois ar ceannaire an Phairtí Lucht Oibre, an Teachta Gilmore, a ceist a chur.

The Galway tent fell down around the Taoiseach.

What about the top 20?

Deputy Gilmore without interruption.

The Galway tent is on top of the Taoiseach.

Please, Deputy Gilmore without interruption.

Is it not amazing that every time Deputy Kenny and I ask the Taoiseach questions about what the Government, which has executive authority, is doing to deal with the banking crisis and the shortage of credit in the economy, which is driving business to the wall and putting people out of work, the Taoiseach's answer is to tell Deputy Kenny what is wrong with Fine Gael's proposals and to tell me what is wrong with the Labour Party's?

Hear, hear.

The Labour Party has none.

What about the Government's proposals? The Taoiseach has repeated the idea that NAMA will be established to solve the problem. In January, the Minister for Finance was asked about the idea of a bad bank. He said that he thought that a bad bank would be a free lunch for the other banks, paid for by the taxpayer. Less than three months later, he announced in the emergency budget what was in effect a bad bank, NAMA, to buy up the banks' bad debts and toxic assets.

The Deputy is being selective.

Last week, the Government rejected the alternative proposed by the Labour Party, namely, the temporary nationalisation of the banks. That proposal has the support of 20 eminent economists——

And Iceland.

——and is one of the options that, according to the IMF, should be considered by economies in this type of situation.

Did the Minister say something? We could not hear him.

Iceland.

We are looking for the cheapest way out.

It is six weeks since NAMA's announcement and we still have no idea what it is about, what it will do and how it will be composed. We know none of the details.

Even the Taoiseach does not know.

The Government published a briefing document on the night of the budget. It stated: "This is a priority for Government." We still do not have the legislation and no idea as to when it will be published. The briefing document stated: "It is proposed to establish the NAMA on a statutory basis". Since then, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance have said that they intend to establish NAMA on a non-statutory basis initially. The Labour Party has pointed out that this cannot be done, in that NAMA would not be able to do anything about anything because it would not have statutory authority to discount loans, carry out evaluations and so on as it is supposed to.

Six weeks ago, the Minister for Finance stated that NAMA would be established under the auspices of the NTMA. Last Thursday, the NTMA's chief executive appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts, but he did not appear to know a great deal about NAMA and did not seem enthusiastic about the idea. He told the committee that the NTMA had neither the staff nor resources to establish NAMA and that it would eventually become bogged down in the courts, resulting in what he described as a bonanza for lawyers. He stated: "The implications are enormous." What is the Government doing about this issue?

I have a number of specific questions. When will we get the details? When will legislation be published and enacted to establish NAMA? When will it be set up exactly? When will it start work exactly? Is it being delayed, as one newspaper reported at the weekend, because the Government is planning a second wave of bailouts, this time for the big developers? An article in one of the newspapers at the weekend——

Deputy Gilmore is getting hot.

There is no point in the Taoiseach tut-tutting me.

It is in the public domain.

I am only putting to him what is in the public domain. A Sunday newspaper stated that the Government and the Department of Finance are planning a formula whereby NAMA will not put any of the 20 big developers into liquidation or receivership. Is the Government's plan to deal with the banks, an urgent matter, being delayed to provide a second bailout, not for the banks, but for the developers?

Hear, hear.

No, it is not, which is the answer to that question obviously. It is obvious that, as has been said by Dr. Somers, we are in uncharted territory. It is necessary for us to bring forward what is a very important and complex piece of legislation. It is necessary in the interests of trying to restore the sort of credit in the system that we need to see and to get businesses back up and running.

It is not a bad bank model, as the Deputy has suggested, because it obviously takes in all loans, including performing loans. We need to make sure that we do that properly.

On the third point in terms of the proposal, as Deputy Gilmore said, the Minister for Finance outlined in his budget speech the decision in principle to proceed along these lines. I can assure the Deputy that the NTMA is a part of the decision making process in that regard.

Tell it that.

I think that what Dr. Somers was pointing out was the importance of getting this right. That is precisely——

Yes. He is trying to safeguard——

Please, Deputy Burton should not interrupt.

He is talking about the importance of getting it right and he highlighted the issues that have to be addressed. We intend to address all of those issues.

Obviously, we have a steering group in place. It includes the representatives of the Department of Finance, the Office of the Attorney General and the NTMA, including Brendan McDonagh, who unfortunately was unable to attend the committee meeting in question due to a family bereavement. All of that work is taking place as part of the work to prepare the legislation, which is being proceeded with and which we hope to publish this summer before we break up. A lot of work is taking place and it is well under way. The heads of the Bill should be brought to Government next month.

As Deputy Gilmore said, in tandem with the work on the legislation, the practical preparations are being progressed. As the Deputy knows, Brendan McDonagh of the NTMA has been appointed as interim managing director. The Minister for Finance has directed the NTMA's chief executive to provide the necessary resources to support the work of the interim managing director in preparation for NAMA. We know that, as it currently is, the NTMA does not have the staff and expertise in this matter. It will recruit, as it has done in respect of every task it has been asked to take on. It has done so very professionally and well. The Minister will soon appoint an advisory committee, which will provide a range of expert advice both to him and to the interim managing director. We are engaged with the EU Commission with a view to ensuring that the final structure of the National Asset Management Agency is consistent with EU guidelines on asset purchase schemes and State aid rules.

On the appointment of expert advisers, as is being currently proceeded with by NAMA through the aegis of the NTMA, substantive work will begin on the analysis of eligible assets, valuation methodology, management of engagement with the financial institutions and identifying how one goes ahead with a viability review in line with EU Commission requirements. All of that practical work will go on in tandem with the preparation of legislation.

Yes, it is a complex area. Yes, it is an arduous task. It is a necessary task that has been undertaken in the way that has been outlined by the Minister for Finance. Of course, it is important to get it right and that is precisely the task that we are undertaking currently.

That was quite an astonishing reply. First, we have another shift in what we know. NAMA was originally to be set up for distressed loans, but the Taoiseach is now telling the House that it is to include performing loans.

Wrong.

He does not understand it.

See saw.

One of the property advisers is speaking.

Second, we are now being told that Dr. Somers highlighted the issues that must be addressed. What Dr. Somers highlighted were the issues that should have been addressed before the Government made its decision. What the Taoiseach is outlining to the House is an advisory committee, a steering group, engagement with the European Commission, considering, delaying and dithering. This is urgent. The Taoiseach said so himself.

Deputy Gilmore should let Deputy Burton explain it.

On budget day, the Minister for Finance stated that this was urgent and a Government priority. We were told that it would need to be done quickly, but the Taoiseach is now saying that there will be a delay, consideration and a period of reflection, it would appear.

No. Action.

When? What is it?

There is no action in this. The Taoiseach says that the Government is doing all of this to get it right. This has all the hallmarks of the kind of way that the Government considered the privatisation of Telecom Éireann. The Government knows how right it got that.

Deputy Gilmore is wrong.

It has all the hallmarks of how the Government considered the establishment of the HSE. We know how right it got that as well.

Decentralisation.

This is dither and delay while businesses go to the wall and are starved of the credit they need, banks are in trouble and the domestic confidence of consumers and businesses and international confidence in the country is eroding all of the time. I asked the Taoiseach a number of very simple questions, namely, when will it be set up, when will we see the legislation, when will it start work and what is delaying it? All he has given me is a long ramble and rigmarole about all the committees and advisory bodies and consideration.

The truth of the matter, which is frightening for the House and the country, is that the Government, which is charged with trying to get this country out of the economic difficulties it is in, part of which is sorting out the banks, clearly does not know what it is doing from one week to the next. It does not have a clue.

The problem is that Deputy Gilmore does not have a clue, because it is very simple. At the very first meeting which was held——

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

The Taoiseach is making his contribution. This is Leaders' Questions and the Taoiseach is obliged to answer the questions which are put to him. Others were listened to in silence and I must insist on the same for the Taoiseach.

We were not.

Let the Taoiseach answer the question, for goodness' sake.

They do not want me to answer the question. That is the point.

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

The accounts are coming in from behind.

They do not want an answer to the question. The issue, very simply, is this. I have been asked when the legislation will be published. I told the House the heads of the Bill will be with the Government in June. We will then proceed——

It is urgent.

Yes, it is urgent, and it is a very complex and arduous task. In the interim, the legislation is being driven, devised and worked on by a steering group involving the Office of the Attorney General, the Department of Finance and NTMA. I do not see what the problem about that is because that is how one goes about doing anything in a logical fashion, given the fact one requires the involvement and input of these people.

Regarding what is happening in practical terms in the setting up of the agency, we appointed Mr. McDonagh as interim managing director. Recruitment will take place, in line with the way people were recruited to the State Claims Agency. Other people were recruited in the past to bring in the expertise necessary and they will work, as I outlined earlier, in that regard. They will go through the various valuation methodology and the various work they have to do.

He cannot do that.

That is what I said on the record of the House. The legislation will be put in place in parallel with that. Deputy Gilmore is saying there should be no action at all until the enactment takes place.

It is the Taoiseach's idea.

It is my idea. Deputy Gilmore's idea is a temporary nationalisation, which his candidate in the Dublin South by-election suggested could last for 20 years. He said that if it involved 20 years, so be it — that is his idea of a temporary nationalisation. So much for no ideology in the Deputy's party.

Regarding what we are trying to do and what we will do, we will proceed in line with EU guidelines on impaired assets, working with the EU and the ECB, making sure we bring forward the legislation that will withstand any legal challenge——

Working with the developers.

In the meantime, as NTMA has done time out of number, we have put together a team of people who will work through the National Asset Management Agency management of that portfolio on the basis of the criteria we outlined.

It was made very clear, at the very first press conference in NTMA, despite what the Deputy suggested about there being something new, that performing assets as well as non-performing assets would be required because we want to make sure, when we get the bonds from the ECB, that the cost of servicing them and the ECB for them is paid for by those who have the debts and not the taxpayer, as would be the case if we went down Deputy Gilmore's road.

That is not possible in the bond market.

That is the end of Leaders' Questions for today.