Tomorrow, the Minister for Finance, on behalf of the Government, will read out his statement that will purportedly seek €4,000 million in reductions and cuts. An element of that will deal with the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

In a revealing programme last night on RTE television, it was estimated that social welfare fraud is running at 10%, leading one to believe the fraud is of the order of €2 billion per year, half of what the Minister for Finance is looking for in his overall cuts. It appears as if the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs have been entirely incompetent in dealing with the scale of this robbery from the taxpayer's pocket. Despite the litany of actions the Minister for Social and Family Affairs talks about having implemented, fraud remains on a vast scale.

As Deputy Naughten pointed out this morning, 11 years ago it was intended to introduce a public services identity card. Recommendations were made by him to transfer surplus officials from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food into the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report last year indicated that officers dealing with fraud are dealing with application forms for social welfare in the first instance.

Can I ask the Taoiseach, given the range of categories that apply in the Department of Social and Family Affairs, having discussed this at Cabinet, where is this fraud taking place in the Department? Where is the €2 billion in fraud being committed?

There is no evidence whatsoever that welfare fraud costs the State €2 billion per year. That figure arose in respect of certain high risk categories that were being investigated and a discrepancy of 10% was found. It is not right to extrapolate from that figure that the total level of fraud in the Department of Social and Family Affairs is 10%.

The level of fraud in most schemes is very low. It is important to point out the vast majority of people entitled to social welfare are those who need it and are obtaining it lawfully. There is ongoing vigilance, because of the need in these difficult economic times, to make sure that those who most require our help obtain it and to ensure that anyone who is defrauding the system is identified and dealt with. That is why so much has been undertaken by the Minister and the Department to ensure fraud is kept to a minimum and eliminated where possible.

There are 620 staff involved in fraud detection, including a special investigation unit. People now collect money in person each week instead of having it sent to them, as was the case in the past. Photo identification is required when collecting payments. Across all schemes, 600,000 claims have been reviewed so far this year, including medical checks and certification to prove continued entitlement to child benefit. Data matching with the Department and with external agencies has been achieved. Inter-agency Border checks have been established. Social welfare officials and Garda national immigration bureau have been put in place. It is only fair to point out that all of that preventative work in terms of avoiding defrauding of the taxpayer and of social welfare recipients is in the interests of genuine social welfare recipients when, at a time of economic difficulty, we have to consider in what way we can maintain living standards vis-à-vis 2008 given the increased cost of living during the course of this year. Obviously these are sensitive areas but I do not accept there is a complacency or that there is not an added determination in the Department of Social and Family Affairs because of the fact that we want to ensure that people who require assistance get it, that anyone who is seeking to cheat on that system is cheating against the taxpayer and those who require those payments. In addition to these initiatives we will do everything possible to ensure fraud is not as prominent a feature of the system as, perhaps, the Deputy suggests.

Last week I spoke to a young engineer who has been forced to sign on for social welfare. I asked him how it is when one goes into the prefab. He said it sucks away one's soul. The way to tackle social welfare is by creating jobs and incentives for jobs which the Government has failed to do. Tomorrow, the budget will be announced. I listened to the senior official in the Department of Social and Family Affairs last evening talking about fraud of between 10% and 15% in some schemes. The lower end of that scale at 10% on a €20 billion spend is €2 billion. Even if it is not €2 billion — the Minister for Social and Family Affairs is shaking her head — it is €1.5 billion too many. Of the 640 officials working in fraud area of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, many are part time.

Tomorrow the Government will take money from carers, the disabled and genuine recipients of welfare who are on the bread line. The only category the Taoiseach said would not be touched was pensioners. In the area of social welfare, children do not commit fraud; pensioners, by and large, do not commit fraud; disabled persons and carers do not commit fraud. Where is it going on? The scams that were exposed last night indicate clearly the incompetence of the Minister for Social and Family Affairs. Some 11 years on we still have not arrived at a point where one can have a public service identity card. We have a situation where the PPS numbers and the computers in her Department are still not talking to each other. There are people who acquire and hire PPS numbers and claim jobseeker's allowance as exposed in that programme and fraud continues. Tomorrow, in a draconian budget, because of Government incompetency, the Government will take away money from people who need it. Everybody agrees that to cheat in social welfare is robbery out of the taxpayers' pockets where that takes place deliberately and knowingly. The Government has failed to become serious about this issue. In many cases it is only a question of making people reapply to find out where they are.

The Deputy has gone over time.

When will an effective public service identity card be implemented? When will surplus from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food be moved into the Department of Social and Family Affairs to deal with this fraudulent activity? When will computer systems be fully linked-up and integrated so that persons hiring or acquiring, by whatever means, a PPS number and who claim jobseeker's allowance, are identified and punished in accordance with the law? The man who said this "sucks away one's soul" deserves his chance at a job and nobody wants to see 10%, €2 billion, fraudulent activity within the Department of Social and Family Affairs continuing in perpetuity.

I would make the point that this Government, when resources were available, provided well in excess of cost of living increases for social welfare recipients and finds itself in a position where tomorrow we have to ensure the protection of social welfare recipients' income vis-à-vis the 2008 position by taking into account the fact that there has been a reduction in the cost of living this year of the order of 6.5% to 7%.

Not for welfare recipients.

And for welfare recipients of the order of 5.5%

That is not true.

We increased the rate last year between 3% and 3.8% at a time when we expected inflation to be 2.5%. It is not a question of percentages in this respect. The real issue is that we have an unsustainable public finance position. If we are to protect the most vulnerable in society, as we must and seek to do, we must do so in a way that provides a sustainable way forward.

One does not have to protect millionaires.

We have increased the social welfare budget by 20% year on year this year over last year. That, of course, reflects the increased unemployment in society. It is also an indication of a preparedness to do everything possible to assist people in this situation and to recognise, as the Deputy fails to, that many improvements have taken place in respect of the obtaining of data by the Department and that it is cross-referencing all the time.

It is not very effective.

The introduction of the card, about which we have spoken, will begin in the coming year. The sum of €24 million will be invested and it will be rolled out to 3 million people in the coming years. The Department of Social and Family Affairs has been an example of——

Of fraud.

No. That is not fair and people on the other side would want to make up their minds. Is everyone on social welfare defrauding the system or not? The answer is no.

The percentage reported was 10%.

The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

What was said by the Deputy a moment ago was that it was a whole series of categories of people who are clearly entitled to their payment yet there is the contention that there is a whole range of fraud.

One-fifth short of the target.

We have indicated that control savings of €475 million were provided for this year. To suggest that 10% is defrauding is not correct. It is not the contention of either the programme or of the evidence that was put before the public last night. If we are to have a discussion on this matter — and it is an important matter——

The proof is there.

——one has to be vigilant all the time and invest in whatever control mechanisms we can devise that will be effective. We must also be fair and ensure we do not suggest there is a level of defrauding taking place because that does an injustice to those who are entitled to it. I accept totally and unequivocally that anyone who uses the system on the basis of not being entitled to it does so at the expense of those who require it and the hard-pressed taxpayer who is seeking to fund it.