Last week, in respect of the matter that was causing some concern around the country about Oireachtas Members being in receipt of ministerial pensions, I asked the Taoiseach whether he would choose either to accept the Fine Gael Bill to legislate for this issue for everyone or to discuss with Members in his own party their opportunity to give up ministerial pensions and to show leadership at a time of national economic crisis. As the Taoiseach is already committed to voting against the Private Members' motion to be debated this evening and tomorrow, has he already had discussions with those Members of his party who are not willing at present to give up their ministerial pensions and if so, what has been the outcome of those discussions?

My position in this matter has been consistent all along, namely, it is a matter for individual persons who are in receipt of such pensions as to what they wish to do. I also made the point to Deputy Kenny last week that the Attorney General's advice is that the immediate and total abolition of pensions for a single category of pensioner would be unconstitutional. As the Deputy is aware, the Government already has been proactive in this area by reducing the pensions by 25% and by indicating they will be abolished as and from the next Dáil, which is what is regarded as being within the parameters of the law.

The Taoiseach will celebrate his second anniversary as Taoiseach in two days' time. He has presided, with his Government, over such an unprecedented destruction of so many things in Ireland that it is quite incredible. I refer to national debt, unemployment and Exchequer figures and the position regarding health. It is important at a time like this that political leadership be demonstrated by the leader of the country.

The Taoiseach came into his office with a very high reputation of having the potential to change, lead and direct but, unfortunately, that has not happened. In the area of judges' pay, he failed to introduce legislation to make it equal for all those involved. In respect of higher civil servants, he exempted them from the recommended pay cuts. In respect of insiders taking privileged positions in banks, he failed to get his way there. The Taoiseach is now the only party leader, as I understand it, who has failed to get consent from members of his party to give up their ministerial pensions. He has failed in that act of leadership and to demonstrate such leadership at this time of national crisis.

Does the Deputy have a question?

The Taoiseach has made the point that the Attorney General has advised him and the Government that it is unconstitutional to take away ministerial pensions and that this deals with the question of legitimate expectation. He put through a Bill last July making it effective from the day of the first meeting of the next Dáil that no serving Member of the Oireachtas will receive a ministerial pension; I support that legislation. I supported the case that this should apply to everybody across the board in equal fashion. I have the advice of three senior counsel, which makes it clear, from their perspective, that this matter is quite constitutional. The Taoiseach has already reduced ministerial pensions, which deals with the question of legitimate expectation. He has done that by Government decision.

When the Taoiseach served as Minister for Health and Children and Minister for Finance the Government received advice from the then Attorney General that it was constitutional to take money from old people going into nursing homes. However, that was deemed to be unconstitutional and the advice of the Attorney General is only advice and has to be acted upon by the Government in session.

I can furnish the Taoiseach with the evidence of these three senior counsel that this matter is constitutional. I ask him again if he has spoken to the three Members involved. Is he in a position where he will continue to abdicate responsibility and leadership at a time when hundreds of thousands of people, as he well knows, are suffering from economic stress and pressure and this is an issue to which they consider leadership, and the demonstration of it, should apply? Every other Member of the House, as I understand it, who legitimately earned a ministerial pension has either given it up or allocated it to charity except for three members of the Taoiseach's party. Has the Taoiseach spoken to, encouraged and advised those three Members that in the interests of many people this perception and demonstration of leadership is important, or will he leave this matter drift along with the litany of other matters on which he failed to deliver?

I refute again the misrepresentations the Deputy has made. I make the point that it is not possible to give back a pension and at the same time to give it to charity. People either give it back or they do not. It is not a matter that can be designated by the individual pensioner.

One can direct debit it to a charity. That can be done by law; I have checked that.

I have set out the position. One has to return it. One does not have discretion as to the purpose for which it will be used. If one wishes to use it for that purpose, it is a matter of one retaining it and deciding to do something with it.

Yes. One can allocate it to charity and one would not therefore receive it.

That is a different point of view. I outlined the position for the purpose of setting out the facts.

The second point I want to make to the Deputy is that, as I have outlined already, we took proportionate steps on this matter. We were proactive on it. We decided to reduce the pension and from next term have arranged for its abolition. In the meantime if there are people who wish to gift their pension, that is a matter for those individual pensioners to decide upon. A number of sitting Members of the Houses and other assemblies have decided to do that with their ministerial pensions. It is a matter for each individual to decide that. The Government has to follow the advice of the Attorney General in these matters in all cases. I do not know what the Deputy's advices are, but the advices to us are as I have outlined them.

I will give them to the Taoiseach if he would like them.

As the Deputy will know, regardless of what legal advices he may have, the legal advices a Government — of which he was a member — has to take relates to the Attorney General. The Attorney General has given his view on this matter; he has explained it. We have legislated for it and in the meantime this does not in any way pre-empt people from gifting their pensions if they so wish.

An Attorney General's advice in the past proved to be unconstitutional.