The Taoiseach will attend the informal summit of leaders from across Europe later today, at which it is imperative radical action is taken to restore confidence and growth across Europe. The situation today is graver than it has been at any time during the past three years. There is no more room for manoeuvre and delay. It is essential that Europe takes critical steps on three basic issues, namely, the sovereign debt crisis, which must be tackled by the establishment of a more secure and larger facility for the purchase of Government bonds; the financial crisis, by ensuring that banks are capitalised to a level which ensures their long term survival is unquestioned across Europe, including dealing with Irish bank and mortgage debt; and, the jobs crisis, by utilising the eurozone's enormous resources to deliver immediate job creating investment. Minimalist approaches are no longer acceptable. People in Ireland should and must vote "Yes" in the upcoming referendum because this will give us the most secure and cheapest access to the funding we need to retain public services and pay pensions in the years ahead. Europe is on a precipice and we must do nothing here to push it over the edge.

It is in that context that I believe we should take the debate to the people. Political leaders should be willing to engage in a national debate with those advocating a "Yes" vote and those advocating a "No" vote. Many voters remain undecided. Some polls suggest up to 30% of people are undecided. I believe a leaders' debate should be facilitated. We live in a democracy. I understand that invitations for such a debate have issued from RTE, the public service broadcaster which has a particular responsibility in this regard. TV3 attempted to organise a leaders' debate but leaders, with the exception of Deputy Joe Higgins and I, declined to participate. People expect leaders to engage. Will the Taoiseach confirm if, as indicated by a spokesperson yesterday, he has been invited by RTE to participate in a debate and what are his intentions in that regard?

The Taoiseach should escape from his handlers for once.

Deputy Higgins is doing a bit of handling these days himself.

I will deal any time with Deputy Higgins.

This is Leaders' Questions. Please allow the Taoiseach to respond to Deputy Martin's question.

I thank Deputy Martin for his public support, and that of his party, for a "Yes" vote on the referendum on the fiscal stability treaty. It is important there is no equivocation about this. It is of particular and fundamental concern for the future of our people and country.

This evening's informal meeting of European leaders is, I am glad to say, the realisation of the claims by quite a number of leaders for some time that Europe should focus on growth investment and job opportunities. It is important to note that this is a meeting of 27 leaders rather than of 25 leaders because growth affects all European Union countries. The opportunity and potential exists for the European Union to be the engine of trade in a global sense, to reduce the cost of business and to complete the Single Market. It also has potential in the digital area and to deal with the crisis issues in the eurozone in the context of the discussions on project bonds, eurobonds and other facilities to relieve pressure on sovereign Governments and to look at the broader spectrum of EU-US and EU-China trade relations. I expect leaders of the 27 countries will contribute to this evening's meeting on the growth agenda for the future. I am happy to participate in that debate from a national and European perspective.

I have no difficulty discussing the fiscal stability treaty. However, I turned down the invitation to appear on a particular programme for good reasons. RTE has invited me, as Taoiseach, to do a broadcast on Sunday following the Ard-Fheis contribution of the leader of Sinn Fein, Deputy Gerry Adams. However, I believe that to be predicated on how much time Deputy Adams devotes to the fiscal stability treaty issue on Saturday evening.

Deputy Adams will have to read the treaty now.

His contribution will be brief.

I am glad Deputy Martin raised the matter. Were I to cave in to the pressure that has been around for some days I would be elevating Deputy Adams to the position of Leader of the Opposition-----

The Taoiseach has called him that at least ten times. He started this.

-----which he is not. I have yet to hear Deputy Adams, as the leader of a political party, say he accepts the validity of the Irish Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann. I am a little sceptical about much of what I hear from that side of the House.

We will consider these matters.

I am unclear as to the Taoiseach's response to my question.

The Taoiseach is like Jedward.

I accept that today's meeting is extremely important. However, the debate here is equally important. I read in The Irish Times this morning that the Taoiseach’s spokesman confirmed last night that the Taoiseach had received a request from RTE to participate in a leaders’ debate.

It must be true so.

The spokesman said the Taoiseach had received numerous requests. I asked the Taoiseach if he would confirm that he had received a request from RTE to participate in a debate. Fianna Fáil has inquired of RTE if there is to be a debate but has received no response in that regard. It is a fair question. I am not getting involved in any issue between the Taoiseach and Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin is holding its Ard-Fheis this weekend----

Ammunition for Fianna Fáil.

-----which I believe is the context of the invitation to the Taoiseach to do a broadcast. It is an unusual set of circumstances because normally political parties holding ard-fheiseanna are informed by RTE that if an Ard-Fheis takes place six weeks in advance of any general election there will be no coverage of it.

Can we have a supplementary question, please?

That would normally be the case but this is a change of tack in regard to how Sinn Féin is being treated. The Taoiseach has been invited but that is not really my point. That is for another day and other parties will also have issues about it in the fullness of time.

Do you have an issue?

Thank you, you are over time.

What I am trying to get at here is the need for a genuine political debate between the political leaders on both sides who are advocating positions on the treaty. It is the fairest way to resolve any claims or counter-claims about lack of balance in how particular parties are treated or in terms of the campaign. More important, we should have the confidence in our position to be able to go on national television and debate the issues. People do not understand a reluctance to become involved.

Deputy, you are considerably over time. Do you have your supplementary question?

What about the Independents?

Will the Taoiseach confirm that RTE has invited him to participate in a debate, as his spokesman stated last night?

We need to reflect on this in the House in a general sense. Leaving the referendum and the treaty question aside for the moment, we need to look at what is happening in regard to referenda in general. Referenda are matters for the people to make decisions on; they are not about giving profiles to individual politicians. Irrespective of the public response in its votes for the different parties, that situation is never reflected in the case of a referendum. I have been through perhaps 22 of the Twenty-six Counties debating this publicly, in village halls, town halls and on the streets-----

Not debating.

-----and, indeed, meeting the professional dustbin bashers brigade in various locations around the country. Peaceful protest is perfectly legitimate in this country. I have no fear at all of dealing with public debate on this issue. However, I am not sure we should turn this into a crisis situation, offering more advantage for, shall we say, minority party views.

Fear.

It is called democracy.

Deputy Adams had his fling on the "Frontline" debate-----

What side are you on, Finian?

------with the Tánaiste and more than met his match.

Has RTE invited the Taoiseach?

When the Deputy speaks of balancing the debate, if that were to be the case, I consider that I, the Tánaiste and the Deputy's good self would be more than a match for Deputy Adams. He would regard that as being very unbalanced, I am quite sure.

Let us have it.

Throw the ball in, Taoiseach.

Ask Mr. Rabbitte to give us a song.

We are over time, thank you.

I know an invitation has come for the Taoiseach to deliver an address on Sunday. I have not personally seen an invitation from RTE to participate in a debate.

I just wanted to confirm if RTE had invited the Taoiseach. That is all.

I have not seen any invitation-----

Through the Chair, please.

-----but I will confirm it to the Deputy after the Order of Business.

The spindoctors will have it.

The Independent Deputies should get an invitation as well.

Through the Chair, please.

I hear Deputy McGrath is on the "Yes" side in Clontarf.

I call Deputy Adams. Maybe we will all settle down now.

Deputy McGrath does not know whether he is a "Yes" or a "No".

Finian is debating with himself.

I do not know if you are hard of hearing. I called Deputy Adams. Thank you. I know the Deputy is very good. It is the man behind him.

He could debate with Deputy Ross.

I welcome the upcoming Sinn Féin Ard-Fheis. It is not that long since the Fianna Fáil, Labour and Fine Gael parties tried to stop us from meeting in ard-fheiseanna.

Do not waste your time. A question, please.

Welcome to democracy, Taoiseach.

An armalite in one hand, the ballot box had not yet got-----

I also welcome the Taoiseach's newfound conversion to the growth and jobs agenda. When he came back to the Dáil on 14 December to report on the austerity treaty, he never once mentioned in his statement jobs or growth. He waxed lyrical and promoted the treaty around its budgetary discipline, reinforced budgetary rules for countries but there was no word about getting people off the dole and back to work. That is in spite of advice from Sinn Féin. He settled for much less that anybody else and now he is trying to play catch-up.

Is léir go dtugann an Taoiseach tacaíocht dos na beartais céanna a bhfuil teipthe orthu ar fud na hEorpa agus anseo in Éirinn.

Will the Taoiseach stand aside from these EU summits where he is very clearly out of his depth? Why does he not send Jedward to represent us? They might at least stand up for Ireland's interests.

That would fit in well with Sinn Féin strategy.

That is about as intelligent a comment as the Deputy has made so far on the treaty debate.

As an elected representative of the House, perhaps Deputy Adams might tell us whether he accepts the validity of Bunreacht na h-Éireann.

Of course I do.

Maith an fear.

Thank you. That is the first time I have heard the Deputy say that.

More diversions. Answer the question.

Never a member of the IRA.

Deputy Martin pointed out this is a change from the usual procedure in respect of the Sinn Féin Ard-Fheis but good luck to the Deputy.

Thank you, Taoiseach.

We also wish good luck to Jedward in their-----

As to the rest of Deputy Adams's contribution, it does not merit any response-----

Ask Deputy Rabbitte to give us a line of a song.

-----because he was very badly exposed in his economics more than once in the last election.

If he will pardon the pun, that is a bit rich given the mess the Taoiseach is making of our economy and that he believes that cutting-----

I hope you read the report on the Antrim Area Hospital list.

-----making savage cuts-----

Thank you.

Given that he believes in savage cuts and given his failure to put money into jobs investment and have direct Government-led investment, instead putting money into banks, that is very bad economics. That is why he supports the austerity treaty. His is a party of austerity.

In terms of the debate, or the Taoiseach's failure to take part in one, does he not think it is very bizarre that, as Taoiseach, he will be allocated some time, proportionate to what I might say on this treaty at the Ard-Fheis?

It is called balance.

He will then trot out and say his little bit and try to persuade people to say "Yes" to austerity, when people are sensible and will say "No" to it. The Taoiseach should remember it is a very good thing to say "No" to something that is not good for oneself, one's family, one's community, one's state or one's country.

Say it to violence.

Would it not be more leaderly, for the Taoiseach, to come into a television studio and inform people, leaving his policies open to scrutiny by others and have a genuine informed debate, as opposed to the hecklefest he has in the Chamber? He could argue these points so that people can take an informed decision on 31 May? I certainly hope that people will vote "No".

I completely reject the Deputy's assertions. It is also good to say "Yes" to access to money, to stability for investment.

"Yes" to jobs.

"Yes" to confidence for growth, to jobs, 1,000 of which have come to Dundalk, as a consequence of Paypal making its decision to invest money in this country.

Thirty per cent of our youth are unemployed.

"Yes" to a continued line of investment, week after week, now running at more than 1,000 jobs announced per month because of investment in our country

"Yes" to a debate.

"Yes" to opportunities where Government can make decisions about having access to finance being made available for small and medium enterprises and small business to create jobs for our young people at home.

Then why not debate it?

These are the positive reasons.

The Deputy, his representatives before him, his party outside, have come into this Chamber but they have never once supported any European Union treaty or any European measure. All he wants to do is to create publicity and garner support through protest. That is perfectly legitimate in this country. However, he has never supported a European Union issue.

Jobs.

In fact, I had to drag out of him words of credit for a multinational that decided to put 1,000 jobs into his own town of Dundalk. It took the Deputy a long time to come round to recognising that people who are his constituents will have jobs in that plant.

This treaty, for from being about austerity, is about bringing stability, confidence, investment, growth and opportunity.

It is not.

If Deputy Adams does not recognise that we have to do good housekeeping to get our house in order-----

The Taoiseach should read what was said.

That will never go away unless we fix it.

Let us have a debate on it.

Deputy Mac Lochlainn spoke yesterday about inserting the entire treaty into the Constitution.

What is the Taoiseach afraid of?

That is the kind of hypocrisy I have to listen to from Sinn Féin.

Let us have a debate.

This is a debate.

We had the blueshirts and now we have the yellowshirts.

Nul points.

I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

Let us hear the quiet man.

He should speak up. We cannot hear him.

Give us the Lisbon treaty jobs first - they are three years overdue.

No agreement, Joe.

The Taoiseach should debate the treaty. He should stop hiding behind media soundbites.

The Deputy should know all about media soundbites.

He always gets the last word during these brief Dáil exchanges. The people should get full information on all the issues pertaining to this treaty. The European Stability Mechanism is one of the central issues he has raised as an argument for supporting the treaty. He should take this opportunity to tell the people of this country the truth about the ESM. Will he admit the reality that we will be liable to pay up to €11 billion if we sign up to the ESM? That is what our liability will amount to.

What will it be if we do not sign up?

That money is likely to end up bailing out Spanish banks.

Two plus two equals ten.

After putting billions of euro into bailing out Irish banks, we will end up bailing out Spanish banks and other European banks. Where will we get the €11 billion from? That money is in addition to the €8 billion in cuts under the troika programme over the next three years, the €5 billion in cuts that are required to meet the deficit targets under the fiscal treaty and the billions in interest repayments on a debt that will be €200 billion by the time we exit the programme.

The Deputy's answer is to default, to walk away and to let it all fall.

Will the Taoiseach admit that even if we pass the fiscal treaty, there is no guarantee that we will get money from the ESM? If the Spanish banks require recapitalisation, there might not be enough money in the ESM to provide assistance to this State if it requires it.

It will be all gone.

Even if we can access money from the ESM, it will be subject to strict conditionality, which means more austerity will be shoved down the throats of the people of this country.

The Deputy is advocating the ESM.

Is he in favour of good housekeeping?

Can we have a question, please?

Is it not incredible that the ESM gives complete immunity from legal prosecution to the board of governors of the ESM?

Would you ask a question, Deputy?

The ESM will pay no tax. All of its documentation will be inviolable from any sort of oversight or investigation.

I ask the Deputy again to ask a question. He is over time.

That is what is in the treaty.

Rubbish.

Ask a question.

Will the Taoiseach admit that the ESM is not an insurance policy for the Irish people? It is not a good reason to vote for the fiscal treaty.

Thank you.

It is actually one of the best reasons to vote against the fiscal treaty.

This is an opinion piece. The Deputy is not asking questions.

It is not an insurance policy for the people of this country. It is an insurance policy for the banks and the speculators in Europe.

The Deputy is over time. I will have to cut him off if he does not ask a question.

It is a mechanism to shove more austerity down the throats of Irish citizens-----

Is the Deputy in favour of good housekeeping?

-----and citizens across Europe.

The Deputy thinks default is the answer.

Is there austerity in St. Michael's?

That hysterical rant was completely meaningless and without truth.

It was a rant.

The last word always rests with the people. The people own this referendum. The independent Referendum Commission, chaired by Mr. Justice Feeney, is absolutely above reproach. It has been entirely objective, truthful and accurate in its comments to every citizen who has asked it a question about this treaty. The commission has made the point quite clearly that as the law has been passed, this referendum is the people's property. The people will have the last word. The chairman of the independent commission pointed out quite clearly on page 9 of the guide to the stability treaty that "the granting of financial assistance in the framework of new programmes under the European Stability Mechanism will be conditional, as of 1 March 2013, on the ratification of this Treaty by the Contracting Party ". Mr. Justice Feeney has confirmed that is the case. In other words, countries that ratify the treaty will have access to the European Stability Mechanism. Our contribution to the ESM is €1.2 billion. We contribute less than 2% of it. We have a place on the board. We have a say in how that money will actually be spent.

It is clear that the analysis of the Spanish banks which is to be carried out will bring factual evidence of what the situation there is. The Spanish Prime Minister, Mr. Rajoy, has been speaking about this. The ESM is the permanent bailout facility for the European countries. As the House is aware, it can be used where required for the payment of salaries and pensions and for the running of a country's services. I am not suggesting that it will be required. It is our intention to emerge from the programme as quickly as possible. In order for us to do that, clearly we have to acquire the confidence of the markets. We will not acquire the confidence of the markets, which are without sentiment or sympathy, by voting "No". A "Yes" vote here will guarantee access to the ESM if it is ever required. It will guarantee a continuation of the line of investment and confidence in this country for job creation. It will allow us to put our own regulations in place to ensure every future Government, like every Government across the entire eurozone, will have responsible budgeting and will not return to what we had in the past. I hope Deputy Boyd Barrett can understand what I am saying.

Is it not the truth that the Taoiseach is deceiving people?

Stop messing and tell the truth.

Ciúnas. Have some respect.

According to the ESM treaty, which I have before me, "there may be paid out of the Central Fund or the growing produce of that Fund sums, aggregating to a sum not exceeding €11,145,400,000".

The important words are "not exceeding".

That is in the treaty.

The Deputy should be asking a question, rather than giving information.

The treaty also states that "if indispensable to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area as a whole and of its Member States", then "the ESM may therefore provide stability support". If it "may" provide it, then it follows that it may not.

We do not have long to wait until 31 May.

The point I am making is that "may" is not the same as "will".

Deputy, please ask your question.

The treaty also provides that "in the interest of the ESM, the Chairperson of the Board of Governors, Governors, alternate Governors, Directors, alternate Directors, as well as the Managing Director-----

Dr. Strangelove.

-----and other staff members shall be immune from legal proceedings". That is what it says. It is incredible.

It is not the only thing that is incredible.

It is no wonder that the Taoiseach does not want to face the facts.

Will the Deputy ask a supplementary question? He is over time.

Will the Taoiseach-----

Will the Deputy speak louder? We cannot hear him.

-----own up about the-----

I will turn off the Deputy's microphone if he does not ask a question.

I started with "Will the Taoiseach", which means I was about to ask a question. Will he own up about the deception he is perpetrating on the Irish people about the real content of the ESM?

Go away.

It may cost us €11 billion to bail out the European banks.

Deputy, this is not a time for statements. This is Question Time.

It is ranting time for the Deputy.

Will you ask a question?

We will have no control over this body. It will be immune from prosecution.

You are way over time, Deputy

It will not have to pay taxes.

I ask the Deputy to accept the Chair's ruling.

I asked a question.

Is there any chance you will come back, Finian?

There is a lot of noise coming from the Government benches.

As a subsidiary of Sinn Féin on this matter, Deputy Boyd Barrett is promoting the cause of the "No" side. It should be borne in mind that the Deputy and his group have been talking about sending the EU and the IMF home with their moneys. They then said the ESM should be vetoed.

They said we should be like Greece.

Now they say we should use the ESM.

I do not say that. I have never said that.

Joe said it.

The Taoiseach should not confuse me with others on these benches.

Are you the leader of the group?

Through the Chair, please. We are over time.

We never say that.

It is too late for that.

It is a lost cause.

The Deputy should stop making up our argument.

The Deputy should read Joe's script again.

They have said it will be all right on the night. They have suggested we will get plenty of money from the ESM at unknown rates of interest.

We did not say that.

Deputy Adams refuses to explain how that can be done. There is no answer to that question.

We did not say that.

The Deputies opposite should stop shouting people down.

They are like Jedward.

The Russian grannies.

As Deputy Boyd Barrett is aware, the ESM treaty is a separate treaty from the fiscal stability treaty.

The Taoiseach said we have to be able to access it.

It will be the subject of a full discussion in this House. The Deputy can contribute in his own way to that discussion. As I have said, Ireland contributes €1.2 billion to this mechanism, or less than 2% of the total. We are represented on the board.

It is available for use for any country that might have a requirement to draw from it, a fact that has been confirmed in this fiscal stability treaty debate by the chairman of the independent Referendum Commission, who, as I said, is absolutely above reproach in this matter.

Shame the devil and tell the truth.

Deputy Boyd Barrett does not accept his word, neither does Deputy Adams. He puts forward these falsehoods all over this country, on posters in his name, which he knows are hypocritical and untruthful, to say the least.

He is only confusing Finian.

Finian is more confused now than when he came in.