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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Mortgage distress and banking reform

Summary

Gerry Adams raised mortgage distress, austerity and growing poverty, urging the Taoiseach to act on proposals for indebted households. The Taoiseach said property-tax decisions were pending, welcomed regulatory pressure on banks, and defended restructuring and recapitalisation while expecting banks to resolve arrears.

Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Would Deputies please remain quiet? Deputy Adams, without interruption.

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Ba mhaith liom an cheist chéanna a chur agus cúpla moladh a dhéanamh. Déanann daoine teagmháil le mo oifig gach seachtain. Tá a fhios ag an Taoiseach go bhfuil daoine ag dul i dteagmháil le gach Teachta sa tslí sin. Tá daoine i bponc de bharr fadhbanna lena morgáistí. Níl cuid acu in ann a morgáistí a íoc. Yesterday, as we heard about and read, Fiona Muldoon sharply criticised the banks for failing to deal with indebted homeowners. John Moran, Secretary General of the Department of Finance, has also called for the banking sector to resolve all the arrears situations. Depending on who one listens to, there are 129,000 families in mortgage distress. The Personal Insolvency Bill 2012, which is the Government's one contribution to this issue, apparently will not be operational until next year and gives the banks a veto over debt write-downs.

When the banks were in crisis, the Government and the previous Government gave them €64 billion. When citizens are in crisis, the Government stands off and does nothing. Variable rate mortgage holders in banks which have received billions of taxpayers' money are paying well above the ECB interest rate and, again, the Government has done nothing about that. I have a number of suggestions for the Taoiseach in terms of actions the Government could take in helping citizens deal with this serious mortgage distress. The first is to bring forward legislation to cap mortgage interest rates, the second is to remove the banks' veto from the Personal Insolvency Bill, the third is to ensure that Ulster Bank passes on additional mortgage interest relief to those in negative equity and the fourth is for the Taoiseach to make a commitment that those in negative equity will not be subject to the property tax. Will he announce these steps today?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Adams is aware that the Government has made no decisions in respect of the property tax and will discuss the matter in due course. All of the suggestions people make will be taken into consideration before that decision is finally made. I welcome the statement by Ms Muldoon from the Central Bank. The setting up of the mortgage arrears resolution committee has been attended by either Mr. Matthew Elderfield or Ms Muldoon and Mr. Moran from the Department of Finance. I welcome their statements and the fact that pressure is being put on the banks by the Central Bank to whom the banks have reported with their various schemes for dealing with mortgage distress for those with high levels of debt.

It is important to say that the strategy here is to focus on people who are not in a position to pay as distinct from those who can pay and continue to do so. Government strategy clearly has to focus on the first group. The regulator must drive this and I wrote to him on the Government's behalf last year telling him that if he required further powers from the Oireachtas in respect of his dealings with banks, he would get them. He was kind enough to respond very quickly to say that he did not consider that he needed further powers at this time.

The Bill being piloted by the Minister for Justice, Deputy Shatter, through the Dáil in respect of personal insolvency and the personal insolvency agency will give clients caught in this trap an opportunity to have a different structure to deal with their mortgage distress or arrears or level of debt if the banks have not been in a position to sit down with these clients and sort it out. I assure Deputy Adams that everybody wants to see people keep the roof over their heads and a resolution worked out. I agree that this is a source of enormous pressure, anxiety and concern for families every day of the week. However, we have inherited a mess which we have now changed in terms of the downsizing, restructuring and recapitalisation of the banks and the requirement of banks to report their schemes to deal with these areas to the regulator. We meet with the banks on a regular basis and tell them that they should now be sitting down with their clients to work this out because the Personal Insolvency Bill is moving through the Houses of the Oireachtas and will become law. At that stage clients will have an alternative method for having a conclusion reached in respect of their mortgage distress, insolvency or debt problems if the banks decide not to do that in the meantime. So it is for them to arrange to have qualified personnel work out solutions, which are all different. The Bill provides those in this category with the opportunity to avail of debt write-downs or forgiveness under the insolvency agency.

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I am very disappointed with the Taoiseach's answer. The social cohesion of communities and our society is under threat, not least because of the austerity policies pursued by his Government.

In this Republic, there are disadvantaged people who never benefited from the Celtic tiger. We have heard reports of what is happening in St. Patrick's detention centre. There are people in rural and urban areas who are totally impoverished. Recently, we heard that 10% of people, including children, are subject to food poverty. This is a mark of our Republic. However, there is now a new shift because, according to the newspapers and what one hears in constituency offices, some of those who never saw themselves as economically vulnerable and who never did anything but pay their taxes, invest in their families and try to buy their homes cannot even put food on the table every day. They certainly cannot pay their mortgages.

There are social consequences associated with choices. I have four propositions for the Taoiseach that would deal with these issues. The Government is very clear when it is dealing with the small people. It has no problem cutting home help hours or the carer's allowance, but when it comes to dealing with the big people, the golden circle and big bankers, there is much convoluted verbiage. Will the Taoiseach not just make a commitment now to implement any of my four propositions? He should introduce legislation to cap mortgage interest rates, ensure Ulster Bank passes on the additional mortgage interest relief, deal with the relevant issues through the insolvency Bill, which gives a veto, and commit that those in negative equity will not be subject to the property tax.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I am sure the Deputy understands the scale of the dysfunctionality that obtained in the banking system a very short time ago. I am sure he appreciates that the restructuring of the banks, involving a reduction from six banks to two pillar banks, the recapitalisation and other changes are important elements of putting in place a banking system that can actually function in the way the country needs. I would like to see Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland operating as private banks doing what they should be able to do for every citizen, with proper systems, efficiency and competency. The fact of the matter is that the State has a share in Bank of Ireland and owns Allied Irish Banks.

The regulator, Mr. Elderfield, of the Central Bank of Ireland, has required the banks to submit to him their proposals to deal with distressed mortgages. This includes split mortgages, trade-down mortgages, the restructuring of mortgage payments and forbearance. As a consequence of their having to have made a submission by September, the banks are now required to implement their proposals. This means sitting down with those who are distressed, anxious and concerned and, in some cases, those who simply cannot meet the mortgage repayments to which they signed up with their banks in the first instance. That is the difficulty in many homes, daily and nightly. I and every other Deputy encounters it. This is why the structure is now in place for banks to be able to deliver on a range of solutions for those with distressed mortgages and who cannot pay, as distinct from those who can pay.

The Government introduced the insolvency legislation. It is being taken through the House by the Minister for Justice and Equality and it will become operational in March 2013. This will allow a different structure and approach for persons in the categories I have mentioned such that the problem will be sorted to their benefit.

It is not a case of the Government standing idly by while this matter boils away and creates even more problems. While it is a matter of major distress for our economy and a cause of a lack of consumer confidence, the process is now clear. The banks have had to submit to the Central Bank their options, which must now be implemented. In addition, the Government is moving on the insolvency legislation.

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Why does the Taoiseach not act on my constructive suggestions?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Deputy makes constructive suggestions every week. We have had long discussions with the banks about steps they could take to help persons in mortgage distress. The regulator required the banks to submit to him, by a certain date, their proposals for persons in mortgage distress. I expect that banks will now answer the calls made yesterday by Ms Muldoon of the Central Bank and the comments made by the Governor of the Central Bank and the Department of Finance pursuant to what the Government has been saying, that is, that we need to prove there is now a functioning banking system and that the facilities given to banks are implemented. In addition, we are moving forward with the personal insolvency legislation.

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