Yesterday I received another large bundle of freedom of information documents on the selection of primary care centres and the addition of centres at Swords and Balbriggan. One might be suspicious on the eve of budget day to get such a large selection of documents because it is a classic way to bury material that the Government might not want people to see but, on a quick read through the documents, they clearly reveal a story of the selection of those sites which is much different to the one that was revealed by the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, over repeated questions in this House, not to mention the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly.

The freedom of information documents show the list of 33 locations was signed off by the Taoiseach and Deputy Gilmore on Friday, 13 July and, significantly, that list does not include Balbriggin and Swords. However, on Monday, 16 July, there was a flurry of e-mails between the office of the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and the Department of Health and others. At 6.02 p.m. on the night before the Cabinet meeting, Swords and Balbriggin were still not on the list. By 6.22 p.m., 20 minutes later, they are on the list. Then written on a significant e-mail, at approximately half past seven that Monday evening, by officials is the following:

Monday evening ... discussed with Maureen Windle [who is the Minister's adviser]. Bairbre advised M Windle in relation to Swords - article in ... [the Irish Independent]. I advised M Windle in relation [to] Balbriggin - recent response to rep signed by Minister for Town Clerk in Balbriggin re leased PCC site location decided - latest is that price is agreed.

Ten minutes later, the adviser, Ms Windle, consults the Minister and gets the response from the Minister that "both Swords & Balbriggin will stay".

The key point here is that these are commercial decisions. A public private partnership, PPP, is a different model to a lease model. A lease model had been agreed. Is it right that a Minister should interfere in such a manner in the commercial arrangement which confers benefit on private sector stakeholders because the PPP model is a much more bankable proposition than the lease model? That is the key. Unfortunately, this is much more than mere political strokes.

The key question here is this. Does the Taoiseach accept that it is wrong for a Minister to get so involved in the detailed selection of public private partnerships and in the modality of the commercial relationship between the State and private sector consortia?

Deputy Martin has returned to this on a number of occasions. I am looking at the page here. I see somebody's writing that states "Taois", and then "Taoiseach" and "Tánaiste" stroked out, "signed off on Friday".

Let me be very clear with Deputy Martin. My only interest in this was in agreeing with the Minister, Deputy Reilly, that there should be more than 20 put on the list to bring about competition, to bring about buy-in from general practitioners and to ensure that under the PPP system at least 20 would get across the line. That was my involvement in it. The Minister, Deputy Reilly, had no function whatsoever in the selection of sites for primary care centres-----

That is not the point.

-----as distinct from locations that he would have determined by the expanded criteria that he set out.

Deputy Martin has been going on about this for a long time. He may take it with him and read it again if he wishes. When he states, "Taoiseach and Tánaiste signed off", that is what I signed off on.

No. Read that one, that is the key one.

I have got it here.

Not that one.

Stroked out, "Taoiseach" and "Tánaiste". Deputy Martin is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

I am not.

What I am interested in, and what you should be interested in-----

No. You keep giving a different answer.

Through the Chair.

-----is seeing that the foundations for these primary care centres are cut, contracts are put in place, workers are employed to build them and the patients and citizens of the country can have first-class facilities in primary care centres around the country.

We need a great deal more than the 20 mentioned, and that will get through from the expanded list of 35, as Deputy Martin will be aware. He himself was involved as Minister for Health at a time of unlimited funding and he failed miserably to reform the structure or to bring about a system that would provide decent health care for the people. He is coming back in here time and again trying to make a case that there was unwarranted political interference for some kind of commercial gain. Deputy Martin is wrong and he should be big enough to recognise that and get on with helping to ensure that these primary care centres are built in the interests of the people all over the country.

Deputy Martin's party invented political interference.

The Taoiseach keeps on answering questions he was never asked. That is his favourite tactic in this House. I refer to what is in black and white. I am not making this up.

The Government made this decision in July and it is now December when I get this information. That is because the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste nor the Minister would not tell the truth about it in this House.

We would want to be careful here.

We had to wait until December to get a freedom of information document which tells the truth.

Fianna Fáil were pulling stokes 40 years ago.

Who was it got us the bank guarantee?

I will read it again. It states: "site location decided - latest is that the price is agreed". Therefore, the Minister did interfere.

Unfortunately, it is in black and white that the Minister interfered in a commercial arrangement.

Would the Deputy put a question, please?

He decided for some reason - and I do not know why - to switch this on the eve of a Cabinet meeting after the Taoiseach had signed off with the Tánaiste on 33, not including these two.

A question, please.

No one knew up to the Monday evening or indeed Tuesday morning. The Labour Ministers clearly did not know either, but for some reason they allowed their Minister of State to take the fall and resign.

A question, please. We are over time.

There is something wrong here. At the very minimum it is wrong for a Minister to interfere in moving a project that is significant for private sector stakeholders from one model to another which confers a better benefit ultimately.

First of all, I do not cast any aspersions on Labour Party Ministers about what they do or do not do. They are part of a Government that is focused on rectifying our economy, putting smacht again on our public finances and providing an opportunity for people to have jobs and investment in the country.

A Labour Party Minister of State resigned over this.

Second, the Deputy should not come in here and claim that I have told lies to the House about this matter.

He did not tell us the truth. He told a pack, a tissue of them.

The function of my interest in this is that it was part of the economic stimulus package of €2.5 billion introduced by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. It included health areas, education, justice, transport, and the major development of Grangegorman in Dublin city centre. My interest was in seeing that these proposals were signed off in terms of the stimulus package.

And no propriety.

I agreed with the Minister, Deputy Reilly, that instead of having a list of just 20-----

The former Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, saw this and she raised the alarm. All these documents show that she was raising alarms about this the whole way along the line.

I am glad Deputy Martin got all the information.

The Taoiseach is not glad I got it because he would not give it.

There was a time when Deputy Martin sat on this side of the House and refused to give any information.

The Taoiseach would not give the information. With all his talk about transparency and all his talk about "Paddy wants to know", he would not give me the information.

Deputy Martin should behave himself.

Will the Deputy please resume his seat? I call on the Taoiseach to finish because we are over time.

I am glad Deputy Martin got all the information.

The Taoiseach is not glad. It is no thanks to him that I got the information.

I hope the Deputy reads it. There was a time when he was on the Government benches and refused to acknowledge that he left behind him a budgetary deficit of €646 million in the Department of Health.