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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Carers facing budget cuts

Summary

Gerry Adams describes public anger and hardship caused by welfare cuts, particularly the reduction in carer support, and asks the Taoiseach to reverse it. The Taoiseach rejects Adams’s criticism and makes personal references to his past, prompting a prolonged confrontation, points of order, and the suspension of the sitting before the Chair repeatedly restores order.

It is more in sadness than in anger that I must say the Taoiseach just does not get it. The budget is all about the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party. It tells us everything we need to know about the two parties. There is huge anger among the people about the cuts and the new taxes the Government has introduced to target citizens who are unable to pay. It is not that they will not pay, they cannot pay. I was at a public meeting last night in Dundalk when I saw raw emotion and despair. I heard a mother say women had a sense of failure in having to admit they could not feed their children. That is what she said. People are deeply incensed by the cuts to child benefit and the back to school allowance, by the taxing of maternity benefit, the increase in PRSI, increased prescription charges and the tax on the family home. However, what has really incensed them, although they are not affected, are the cuts to the respite care grant, through which the Government is picking the pockets of 77,000 citizens. The respite care grant is hugely important to the families involved. Leaving aside the ethics, cutting the grant is bad economics. If the State had to pay for the care the families concerned provide 24 hours a day, seven days a week, it would not be able to bear the cost. If the Taoiseach does not get this - sitting in a row of millionaires - it is because he is taking home €200,000 a year. Therefore, he does not understand what it is like to have to get kids back to school.

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We do not have a house in the North and the South.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Please allow the Deputy to continue.

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Those listening to the Taoiseach will not be encouraged that he has a sense of their plight. Ministers take home over €3,000 a week. The Government has broken the cap for special advisers and refuses to consider alternatives. If I was to bring in the woman who spoke last night and she was to plead with the Taoiseach to reverse this cut, would he do it? On her behalf, I ask him to reverse it. There are alternative ways of raising the money. Will the Taoiseach consider reversing this dreadful cut which will affect people who just cannot afford to take it?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I was in Phibsboro last Saturday with Deputy Paschal Donohoe when I met some of Deputy Gerry Adams's supporters on the street who were handing out leaflets attacking the Labour Party, but these supporters were not able to answer any question about any of the issues mentioned on the leaflets regarding the fantasy economics in which Sinn Féin was engaged. The Deputy has made a disgraceful comment about Ministers. I assure him that none of them was funded by the assets of Northern Bank.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Gerry Adams knows very little about taxation matters if he makes a comment like the one he has just made. However, I will not go back over history to hear the Deputy expound on many elements of the truth. It ill behoves him to talk about the raw emotion of women, in particular, having regard to some of the incidents that occurred in his lifetime and with which he was associated, which resulted not in just raw emotion but which had tragic consequences. I will not take that from the Deputy and it is beneath him to carry on like that.

Carer's allowance in Northern Ireland is £58.45. Having made the decision on the bigger issue to sort out the public finances and put the economy in shape for the future and having made decisions on child benefit and the respite care grant, the carer's allowance, the carer's package, the homecare package and the half-rate carer's allowance all remain untouched. The respite care grant stands at a figure of €1,375, although for many, this is not enough and never will be. I have given the Deputy the numbers for those in receipt of the allowance. As he is aware, payment of the allowance is unconditional because of our appreciation for what carers actually do. This is reflected in the carers' strategy which was published by the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, earlier this year and accepted by all and which we would like to see implemented.

As the truth goes, although this might be scarce in the Deputy's repertoire, financial circumstances do not permit us to pay all we would like to in these difficult days. It is not a case of elements of the budget being reversed on a whim. This has been a very difficult budget to put together and we recognise it is trying for many, but we must get the country out of its difficulties. As I said to Deputy Micheál Martin, over €500 million extra will come from those who can best afford to pay.

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I never thought the Taoiseach would make me laugh on this day, but his stupid remark about the Northern Bank in response to a serious question made me laugh. Second, he referred to events in my life and women. That is below him and diminishes the office he holds. Sinn Féin Members and I are here with a mandate. We have been mandated to raise the issues we are raising. The Taoiseach was never given a mandate to do what he is doing. He was not sent here to cut the allowances of carers. He was not sent here to cut child benefit or maternity benefit. He asked for and was given a mandate to do the exact opposite. He can be tough with the people concerned and say the things he does across the floor, but he kowtows to his masters in Europe. He kowtowed to the big bankers and the golden circles who got us into this difficulty. He should cut out the waffle and the rubbish and answer the question. He should show some compassion. He says the budget is difficult for him, but, with respect, it is not the least bit difficult for him. This is the easy choice to make, to tackle those who are not organised and who are vulnerable and on the margins.

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If the Deputy had showed compassion 15 or 20 years ago, it would have made a big difference.

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The difficult choice is to tackle the powerful elements. However, it is the interests of the more powerful that the Taoiseach's party acts and - shame on it - that increasingly the Labour Party acts. I noted the Taoiseach's defence of the Labour Party. I asked him a question.

I asked him if he would listen to the woman who spoke at last night's public meeting in Dundalk if she was standing here today appealing to him to reverse this cut. He will not listen to me - he prefers to mess about and rubbish what I say - but surely he will listen to this woman, at least.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I meet carers from all over the country. I know the pressure and stress they are under. I know the pressure and stress many in mortgage distress and negative equity are under. I know the difficulties of those who are unemployed who lost their jobs and cannot find new work. I know the despair in the minds of some young people who are choosing to emigrate because they cannot see a future.

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The Taoiseach should do something about it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Government must attempt to deal with all of these circumstances and problems. There is no easy solution to the range of problems the Government faces. With respect to all of those who went before me, few of them ever had to face the scale of the economic challenge we now face. In response to the Deputy's comment about his past business, I had this out with him a number of weeks ago. I would love to hear him speak the truth about some elements of his past.

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If the Taoiseach arranges a special debate, we can talk about that issue.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

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We are talking about carer's allowances, for which the Taoiseach is responsible.

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The Deputy is good at giving it, but he will not respond to it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Gerry Adams has made the charge; he should now cut out the waffle and engage in some straight talking. Perhaps some day he might tell the truth about the tragedy, the remorse and the compassion that should have been shown to Jean McConville.

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Maybe some day.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Maybe Deputy Gerry Adams might do that some time.

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I will express, as I have done before-----

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The Deputy should not shake his hand in the Chamber.

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-----my sincere regret for what happened to Jean McConville.

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The Deputy was never a member of the IRA.

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I will ask the Taoiseach again to deal with-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

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A Cheann Comhairle, when this issue was raised before, you said to me you would ensure these types of things were not said in the Chamber.

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Does the Deputy think people should not be allowed to tell the truth?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I ask Deputies to ask questions rather than answering them.

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On a point of order, a serious charge has been made by the Taoiseach.

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It is the truth.

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A Cheann Comhairle, you are there to defend my right to represent the mandate I was given by asking questions of the Taoiseach.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

There are other ways of dealing with the issue.

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I did not raise it.

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The Deputy asked a question and received an answer he did not like.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

There are other ways of making the point-----

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What are they?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

-----without breaching Standing Orders.

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I am not breaching them.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

If the Deputy wishes to come to my office-----

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I went to your office before.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

-----I will outline the way he can do it.

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I want the Taoiseach to withdraw that remark.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

That is a matter for the Taoiseach. I cannot force anybody to do that.

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I know you cannot force anybody, but the Taoiseach is diminishing his office.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Can we get back to Leaders' Questions, please?

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It is so easy for people to make-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The time allowed has expired. We are four minutes over time.

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-----totally unsubstantiated allegations in order to disguise their own responsibility-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

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-----for what they are doing to working people in the State.

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It is the hypocrisy that is the issue.

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The Minister should not dare to talk about hypocrisy.

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The Minister is talking about hypocrisy - God almighty.

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Will I find myself in trouble in a dark alley some night?

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All of the backbenchers who are heckling are going to the newspapers to say they will confront the Minister about all of these cuts and how much they care about carer's issues.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Would the Deputy mind-----

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This is their chance to show they care, but instead they are heckling.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I ask the Deputy to respect the Chair.

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It is a nonsense-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I am trying to maintain order.

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-----that all of these hecklers are telling their local newspapers how much they care.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will Deputy Gerry Adams ask the person beside him to behave himself?

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They do not care a damn. We will see in a few days time how they will vote.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I remind Members to co-operate with the Chair. The Chair cannot operate if Members do not adhere to the rules that give them two minutes in which to ask a question, three minutes for the reply and one minute for a supplementary question. I ask both sides to stick to this.

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On a point of order, the Ceann Comhairle has spoken about keeping to the rules.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I will not ask the Deputy again.

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If the Taoiseach can make the type of remark he made-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I will suspend the sitting if the Deputy does not resume his seat.

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I want the Taoiseach to withdraw his remark.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I will suspend the sitting. Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

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No, I will not.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Then I suspend the sitting for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 3.45 p.m. and resumed at 3.55 p.m.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

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On a point of order-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

What is your point of order, Deputy?

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I would like you to ask the Taoiseach to withdraw his remark-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

That is not a point of order. I have asked you to obey the Chair. I have called Deputy Boyd Barrett. If you continue to interrupt, I will have to ask you to leave the House.

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A Cheann Comhairle-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Please co-operate with the Chair. We have had enough damage done today.

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Can I just-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I have called Deputy Boyd Barrett. It is not a point of order.

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Excuse me, can I please make my point?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Please resume your seat, Deputy.

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Can I please make my point?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will you please resume your seat and adhere to the wishes of the Chair?

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Then tell me what procedure I can use to ask you very reasonably-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

If you care to come to me afterwards, I will advise you as best I can.

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Let us do it openly.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Excuse me. We will not lecture the Chair as to how-----

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I am not lecturing the Chair; I am asking you a question.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will you please resume your seat? I am on my feet. I will not be lectured. I have called Deputy Boyd Barrett. I have told you that if you wish to come to see me, I will go through the issue with you and we will see what we can do. I have called Deputy Boyd Barrett and that is it.

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I am looking for guidance.

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A Deputy

The Deputy needs a map to his office.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Otherwise, you will be asked to leave the Chamber because you are ignoring the Chair. You cannot question the authority of the Chair like this. I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

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I am making a request of the Chair-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I have told you what it is.

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I am making a request of the Chair to ask the Taoiseach to withdraw his remark.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

You are not making any request at all. I ask Deputy Boyd Barrett to resume.

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