We use Google Analytics to see which pages are read and how the site is used, so we know what to improve. This only runs if you accept. See our privacy notice for details.

Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Promissory notes deal and property tax

Summary

Billy Kelleher acknowledges the promissory-note deal but argues it must produce a social dividend and that the local property tax is unfair to households unable to pay. Brendan Howlin defends the deal and the need to broaden the tax base, saying the property-tax legislation will be debated and designed as fairly as possible.

Last week the Government announced with great fanfare - it will claim rightly and justifiably - a deal on the promissory notes. Over the weekend we saw a certain amount of spinning to take credit for it and it was mentioned how the Government had said it would threaten and intimidate the Governor of the Central Bank to make sure a deal came through on time. There was the banging of fists on tables. What was most important was that the vast majority inside and outside this House had welcomed the deal. The Government claimed that it was necessary that there be a social dividend arising from it.

Comment on this

It socialised the debt.

Comment on this

It then published the Finance (Local Property Tax) (Amendment) Bill 2013. That tax is inherently unfair, as it does not take into account ability to pay.

Comment on this

The Deputy should look at his party's memorandum.

Comment on this

It was a Fianna Fáil tax.

Comment on this

It does not take into account the recommendations of the Commission on Taxation with regard to certain cohorts.

Comment on this
Eric J. Byrne Deputy Eric Byrne Labour Party

That is preposterous.

Comment on this

The fact of the matter is that the tax is inherently unfair and unjust.

Comment on this

Why did Fianna Fáil propose it?

Comment on this

The Deputy obviously did not read the manifestos because in his party's manifesto he did not propose it either.

Comment on this

Deputy Emmet Stagg did not read the memorandum of understanding either because it included a reference to a site valuation tax, which is something very different altogether.

Comment on this

The Deputy should read the memorandum of understanding and point his finger at himself.

Comment on this
Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Deputies should calm down.

Comment on this

I raise this matter because there is grave concern outside the House and on the back benches of the Labour Party and Fine Gael. This tax is seen as being the wrong tax at the wrong time.

Comment on this

Yes, it is the wrong time. The Deputy's party should have introduced it.

Comment on this
Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

The Deputy should now conclude, as he is over time.

Comment on this

In fairness, there has been heckling. I would like to make a few valid points if Members opposite would listen. The CSO has published figures that show that disposable income has fallen for a fourth year in a row. It is outlining that people simply cannot afford the basics of heating, gas and oil.

Comment on this

How did that happen?

Comment on this
Eric J. Byrne Deputy Eric Byrne Labour Party

Fianna Fáil bankrupted the country.

Comment on this

Who is responsible for it?

Comment on this

Eric the Red is causing trouble.

Comment on this

When Deputy Eric Byrne is on one's side, one knows one is in trouble.

Comment on this

Deputy Finian McGrath is backing Fianna Fáil again.

Comment on this

Let me make three points. Why did the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Government not take into account the recommendations of the Commission on Taxation with regard to people who had purchased homes at the height of the boom and paid excessive stamp duty? That is one critical issue.

Comment on this

Who was in government at the time I wonder?

Comment on this

Why did they not take into account inability to pay at a time when families were under huge pressure and the figures correlated with this? They are the two key issues about which people want to know.

Would it not be appropriate to at least give some social dividend in view of the deal on the promissory notes to address a generation who are finding it very difficult in middle Ireland, particularly in Dublin, as the Minister's backbenchers are saying, as are Fine Gael backbenchers, daily on radio and to their constituents?

Comment on this

It is a Fianna Fáil social dividend.

Comment on this
Brendan Howlin Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform Labour Party

Deputy Billy Kelleher has raised a variety of issues. Last week the official spokesperson of the Deputy's party, Deputy Michael McGrath, was quite gracious in acknowledging the deal done and its impact on the country as we in government worked to fix the terrible damage inflicted by our predecessors in government. It was a significant achievement last week, despite the fact that the Leader of Fianna Fáil told the House in February that the idea we could unilaterally renegotiate the programme was wrong. He also told the Leader of the Labour Party at the time to stop pretending that we could dictate to the ECB and everybody else.

Comment on this

If he had dictated, he would have secured a write-down.

Comment on this

The Sinn Féin spokesperson at the time, Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, told the House on 26 September that it was clear the Government's "so-called negotiating strategy on banking debt is in tatters."

Comment on this

I stand by that.

Comment on this

Despite all that was said, any observation by any unbiased person would see the best possible deal for this country was achieved last week. However, it is only one step in the path of recovery. I agree with the Deputy that there must be a social dividend from the incremental progress we are making because, in truth, the people have taken an enormous burden and it is to them the vast bulk of the credit for the steady progress on the road to recovery we have achieved is due.

On the point raised by the Deputy on the property tax, as he knows it was part of the commitments solemnly signed into by the predecessor Government of which he was part and to be delivered. The detail of the structure of that will be discussed in minute details when the legislative provisions are brought to the House in the coming weeks.

Comment on this

I have no problem graciously acknowledging the fact that a deal was done last week on the promissory notes.

Comment on this

Fair play to the Deputy.

Comment on this

He can apologise now for putting the country into this mess.

Comment on this

In fact, the Minister probably got more acknowledgment for this from Fianna Fáil than he did from some of his backbenchers who are still unhappy that the debt has been socialised on to the sovereign.

Comment on this

What about four years ago?

Comment on this

The point I am making is that Labour did not dictate to Frankfurt because it got no debt write-down unlike the claims of the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade when he was in opposition and claimed it was Labour's way or Frankfurt's way.

Comment on this
Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Fianna Fáil got no write-down either.

Comment on this

It was Fianna Fáil's mess.

Comment on this

The deal was an achievement but for Labour to claim it put the gun to Mario Draghi's head and threatened to pull the trigger is an absolute bluff. There is an agreement that will benefit people but only if the Government decides that a social divided is required from it.

Many families are out there in huge distress. They did not support the parties opposite for cuts to child benefit, increases in PRSI or to see a property tax foisted on them when they have not ability to pay everyday household bills. This is predominantly the case in Dublin and other commuter-belt areas.

Comment on this
Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Did this Government bring in the troika?

Comment on this

This is predominantly the case in Dublin and other commuter-belt areas.

Comment on this

It is Fianna Fáil's mess.

Comment on this

No one is taking Deputy Kelleher seriously.

Comment on this

It is Fianna Fáil's mess.

Comment on this

You seem to have hit a raw nerve there Billy.

Comment on this

It is Fianna Fáil's mess.

Comment on this

When Deputy Keating heckles me, I really do think I am making progress.

Comment on this

Deputy Kelleher is well able for it.

Comment on this

The ability to pay the property tax has to be examined. There has been some fraying around the edges but the majority of people will be obligated to pay a property tax whether they can afford it, put food on the table or oil in the tank.

Comment on this

That is Fianna Fáil's legacy.

Comment on this

This is about middle Ireland trying its best to pay health insurance and other costs that the State does not take up.

Comment on this
Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Did this Government bring in the troika?

Comment on this

Ronaldo Durkan there needs a red card.

Comment on this

Fianna Fáil's criticism of this Government's strategy is based on its denial that it brought this country to the brink of economic ruin.

Comment on this

When the Minister was in opposition he called for us to spend more and tax less.

Comment on this

You were a member of the worst Government in the history of this State that wrecked our economy.

Comment on this

The Minister should read his party's manifesto.

Comment on this
Deputies

Hear, hear.

Comment on this

We want to look forward, not backwards.

Comment on this

It was a Healy-Rae mess.

Comment on this

Stay quiet over there and show some manners and show respect to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Comment on this

It is about time Deputy Healy-Rae owned up to what he did.

Comment on this

What Deputy Griffin said is a disgrace.

Comment on this

We do not want to hear that.

Comment on this
Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

I want order please. Deputies Griffin and Healy-Rae can do this elsewhere.

Comment on this

I agree with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. It is a disgrace.

Comment on this

All of Deputy Kelleher's finger-pointing and shouting cannot deny the fact that two years ago a new Government came in to pick up the pieces of the broken economy and is now well on the way, step by step, with the help of the people to fix the destruction Fianna Fáil left behind in its wake.

We do need to broaden the tax base because Fianna Fáil left us in a situation where we could not pay for day-to-day expenses and we are borrowing at the rate of over €1 billion a month.

Comment on this

The Minister was promising to cut taxes and so forth.

Comment on this

Up to 30% of our tax base collapsed because Fianna Fáil had shrunk it. We need to broaden the tax base.

Comment on this

The Minister was promising to cut taxes when he was in opposition.

Comment on this

Part of that is to have a property-based tax that is analogous to every other developed country across the world.

Comment on this

So the Minister supports it.

Comment on this

The detail of the property tax will be brought through step by step-----

Comment on this

So it is not the troika that wants it.

Comment on this

The Deputy can shout me down all he likes. The tax will be debated in this House step by step. It will be done in as fair a way as we can in the circumstances Deputy Kelleher's party left this country.

Comment on this
Deputies

Hear, hear.

Comment on this

Why is the Government only giving 20 minutes to debate it?

Comment on this

The Deputies opposite have no shame.

Comment on this

Will the Government give us half an hour for this debate?

Comment on this