Minister Shatter’s use of Garda information
Deputies challenged Minister Shatter’s alleged use of confidential Garda information against Deputy Wallace, his judgment, and his handling of a breathalyser checkpoint. The Taoiseach defended Shatter, apologised for his remarks, maintained confidence in him, and said Shatter had committed no offence because asthma prevented him completing the test and no incident report was made. Opposition Deputies disputed that account and called for greater policing independence.
The office of the Minister for Justice and Equality is probably the most sensitive office in Government. This sensitivity arises from the roles and relationships that he or she must have with some of the most important institutions of State. The Minister for Justice and Equality has responsibility for An Garda Síochána and to provide for the Judiciary, and receives confidential and private information, often pertaining to the security of the State.
On 15 May last the Minister, Deputy Shatter, received a report from the Garda Commissioner on the penalty points investigation and report. That concluded that there was no evidence found to suggest any criminality in the cancellation of fixed charge notices. The Minister then appeared on RTE's "Prime Time" on 16 May and even though he was armed with the facts of the report, he decided to divulge private information about Deputy Wallace that was given to him by the Garda Commissioner. He clearly crossed the line. He showed contempt for the democratic norms for his personal political gain. Everyone but Fine Gael believes that this was inappropriate use of private information. When the Taoiseach replies, I want him to outline his response to the inappropriate use by the Minister, Deputy Shatter, of this private information.
On Thursday last, 23 May, after questions were raised in this House, the Minister was forced to make a statement about when he was stopped on Pembroke Street at a routine checkpoint. He stated that he was unable to fully blow the breathalyzer due to asthma and that he was also returning from Dáil Éireann. Amazingly, when speaking on this matter over the weekend, the Taoiseach stated that the Minister stated that he twice failed to fill the breathalyzer and he expressed confidence in him.
These are the questions I have for the Taoiseach. Has he since spoke to the Minister? Given today's report in the Irish Independent of which I am sure he is aware and given the Minister, Deputy Shatter's, statement this morning released at 6.31 a.m., is the Taoiseach concerned that a report on Deputy Wallace could find its way up the Garda chain of command to the Minister and into a television studio and be broadcast nationally, yet, apparently the incident in Pembroke Street was not reported at all?
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The Minister, Deputy Shatter, has apologised for the comment that he made on a national television programme in respect of Deputy Wallace. The Minister has already made a statement to the Dáil on this and he has answered questions about it. He will confirm this evening again, in respect of a motion of no confidence, that, as a person who suffers from an asthmatic condition, he made two attempts to blow into the mandatory breath testing facility at the mandatory checkpoint.
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He will blow into a bag this evening.
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The Minister, Deputy Shatter, has the full confidence of the Government in respect of the reforming strategy he has set for the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Defence, as well as the legal profession. He will answer this evening in that regard. I have absolute confidence in the Minister to do his job. As I stated, he apologised for the comment.
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He has clarified that the original charge that this happened between the election and the appointment of a new Government was not true and he clarified the matter in respect of the mandatory checkpoint. As he released his statement this morning, he verified what has been confirmed by the Garda Commissioner to the Secretary General in the Department of Justice and Equality in that inquiries were made by Garda management as to whether a report existed. A search of the computer system failed to locate any such report. Speculation and allegations can appear in newspapers but the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has been very clear and upfront about the matter. In the reform programme set out in his work as Minister for Justice and Equality and Minister for Defence, he has the full support of the Government and we will be here this evening to answer any further questions people have.
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The Taoiseach stated that the Minister apologised but I did not ask about that. I asked for a response to the Minister's use of private and confidential information for his political advantage. He was privy to such information because he was briefed by the Garda Commissioner, and the Taoiseach has not addressed that point. What does this say for the working relationship between the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice and Equality of the day? Can the Garda Commissioner feel confident and secure that he can brief a Minister on confidential matters? I do not believe so as the relationship has been breached. The Taoiseach has not addressed that matter.
All of this erodes public confidence. What message is sent out when a Minister for Justice and Equality in waiting is stopped at a mandatory checkpoint by An Garda Síochána, citing that he is travelling from Dáil Éireann, with all the implications and constitutional privilege that go with it? Is that appropriate?
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What should he have said? Should he have said he was going home from Croke Park?
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The Taoiseach is talking about an apology and having confidence in a Minister who is reforming. These were not the questions, although we can argue about reform tonight. He is no more reforming than any other Minister for Justice and Equality. The Taoiseach should deal with the issue of his judgment, about which the Taoiseach has not commented publicly. The Taoiseach twice made comments from afar - in Boston and elsewhere at the weekend - without having spoken to the Minister. That is not good enough, and at the very least, the people are entitled to hear from the Taoiseach. Does he believe the use of private and privileged confidential information was appropriate? It is a straightforward question.
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Of course, I have spoken to the Minister for Justice and Equality, who has clarified the exact circumstances surrounding the mandatory checkpoint issue, including the time it occurred. In answer to a question from the Deputy's leader last week, I made the point that the Minister's comment was made in an attempt to undermine the argument being made by Deputy Wallace as opposed to undermining the Deputy himself. The Minister for Justice and Equality responded to that in the House last week with statements and a question and answer session, and he apologised for the action.
The Minister has set out the most extensive change programme for the Department of Justice and Equality, the Department of Defence and the legal system in the past 100 years. Considering that his life in these Houses has been involved in dealing with the rights of people, particularly the rights of families and children, his judgment speaks for itself. He is the Minister who has made arrangements for additional prison spaces and continued reductions in payroll and operating costs across prisons. He brought about the immigrant investor programme and start-up entrepreneur schemes-----
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He closed many Garda stations as well. There is not much good about that.
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-----as well as the new visa waiver programmes, the clearing of the backlog of applications for citizenship and new formal ceremonies for people who become naturalised citizens of the country. Instead of having such people attend in the middle of court cases, they can have a formal ceremony and swearing-in with respect to the flag, our national anthem and the Constitution. He streamlined immigration procedures and has brought forward the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012, as well as the National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012 and the Criminal Law (Defence and the Dwelling) Act 2011-----
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What about the Garda stations?
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-----that makes it clear that a person may use reasonable force to defend himself or herself in the home.
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Many of these were already in the pipeline.
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Has the Taoiseach forgotten about them?
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It would be nice if they had a voice.
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The Criminal Justice Act 2011 provides improved powers for the Garda in combating white collar crime. The Criminal Justice (Search Warrants) Act 2012 provides for the issuing of search warrants by gardaí in exceptional circumstances of urgency. The 2013 criminal justice Bill will provide the power to temporarily close down mobile phone transmissions where there is a serious terrorist bomb threat. Deputy Dooley may laugh about it but it would be no laughing matter if the event occurred, believe me.
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There was much laughing about Garda stations over there.
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The Taoiseach could answer the questions put to him. It would be more in his line than giving us the full history of the Minister.
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Apparently it is all right to close Garda stations.
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Zero tolerance. Does the Deputy think the Minister will run in south Kerry?
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He brought forward the Twenty-Ninth Amendment of the Constitution (Judges' Remuneration) Bill, the Legal Services Regulation Bill 2012 and the Courts Bill 2013, which will enhance the role of the District and Circuit Courts-----
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-----and provide for the appropriate reporting of family law cases. The Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill facilitates the rehabilitation of once-off offenders.
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A Cheann Comhairle, seriously-----
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What about finding Garda Donohoe's killers? Where does that stand?
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He is the Minister who brought forward the opportunity for the people to vote on the setting up of a court of civil appeal and next year, please God, for the people to have the opportunity to set up a whole new system of family courts.
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Is it not amazing how he is so unpopular?
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Those opposite will know it soon enough when they have to go before the people.
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These innovative and far-reaching proposals and changes by the Minister for Justice and Equality, if adopted by the House and the people, will bring our legal and justice system - with all connected to it - into the 21st century.
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What about the questions we asked of the Taoiseach?
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He would not even say hello to anyone.
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Perhaps that could be put in legislation.
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The Taoiseach has again stated that he has full confidence in the Minister, Deputy Shatter, and he clearly knows something the rest of us do not, as the facts in so far as we know them are very straightforward. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, made use of privileged information he received from the Garda Commissioner in an attempt to smear an Teachta Wallace. He has acknowledged that. The Taoiseach and the Minister have indicated that he was merely pointing out that an Teachta Wallace had been protesting about discretion being used by the Garda while he had availed of it himself. He stated that an Teachta Wallace was wrong not to point this out.
At the same time, the Minister appears to have benefitted from this discretion. Has the Taoiseach sought an explanation from the Minister about the issue? It appears a bit strange in the real world when one Deputy, an Teachta Wallace, gets a nod from a garda at traffic lights and it ends up with the Garda Commissioner and the Minister whereas another Deputy, an Teachta Shatter, can be stopped at what the Taoiseach described as a mandatory Garda roadblock without a similar outcome. There would have been an actual exchange with a garda or number of gardaí and an incomplete breathalyser test, but we have been told there is no report. Was there a report or has the report gone missing? Has the Taoiseach asked the Minister if he co-operated with gardaí when he was stopped?
Did he use privilege on the basis he was travelling from the Dáil to avoid completing the breathalyser test?
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The Deputy knows a bit about this I think. Deputy Wallace was very clear in his comments that he was using a mobile telephone in his car, a Garda car pulled up beside him and there was a short exchange. From this point of view Deputy Wallace had committed an offence by using a mobile telephone while driving.
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The Minister, Deputy Shatter, was very clear in his statement that when driving home he came into a line of cars where there was a checkpoint and breathalysers. It is mandatory and set out in the Act that every car or every second, third, fourth or fifth car as determined by the chief officer must be pulled in and whether one is a pioneer or not one is breathalysed. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, was very clear that he made two attempts to blow into the breathalyser and failed to do so.
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Will he give us a demonstration tonight?
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One is brought to the station like Deputy Clare Daly was.
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-----the Garda retains discretion and the authority to take the matter a step further and this is clearly set out in the Act. If one were to believe reports the Minister, Deputy Shatter, drove off in a cloud in the middle of this. Nothing is further from the truth. Does Deputy Adams believe the formal letter from the Office of the Garda Commissioner? It confirms to the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality that the Garda Commissioner made inquiries and caused inquiries to be made by local Garda management as to whether a report of the incident was made at the time, and he was informed that no such report was generated by the garda in question. Despite a further search of the computer system no report was located. This is the official confirmation from the Office of the Garda Commissioner. I believe this and I accept it. I hope Deputy Adams does also.
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I must accept what the Taoiseach has read out, but I ask, "Why?". As I pointed out, in the case of Deputy Wallace a report was made. It seems to be a matter of form that Ministers, particularly those with responsibility for justice, obtain information from senior gardaí on their political opponents. This has been going on for decades and there is a long list including Sean Doherty, Deputy Willie O'Dea, Michael McDowell and the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter. This is the way it works. There is a big argument for an independent police authority and we will return to this issue.
The Taoiseach referred to mandatory roadblocks. I am advised that at a mandatory roadblock a Garda report must be made on the checkpoint itself and this is the law. The Taoiseach stated there is no report on the actual incident involving the Minister, Deputy Shatter, but there must be a report about what occurred at the checkpoint. If there is not, as the Taoiseach suggests there is not, why is there not? Can the Commissioner not ask the gardaí involved to clarify this matter and seek a report from them? As far as I understand it, it is the law that there must be a log and a written report of what occurred at a mandatory checkpoint.
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There is a difference here as I pointed out. Deputy Wallace was using a mobile telephone which is an offence under the law. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, committed no offence.
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I cannot believe the Taoiseach said that in the House. It is unbelievable. He did not co-operate with a breathalyser test.
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Deputy Shatter was driving home and came to a checkpoint operated by the Garda on a public street with lines of cars waiting to be checked. In accordance with the setting up of the checkpoint a garda instructed which cars were to be checked on that occasion.
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He failed to complete a breath test.
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As a person who suffers with an asthmatic condition he made two attempts to complete the breathalyser test.
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It is an offence not to co-operate with a breathalyser test. It is an offence under the law.
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The law says to go to a Garda station.
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Without a report the Taoiseach has a lot of information.
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-----it is the decision of the garda in question in consultation with his or her superior as to what to do.
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He knew his constitutional privilege.
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There is a difference between this particular incident and that of Deputy Wallace. Let me remind Deputy Adams that no report was generated by the garda involved.
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This is a matter for the garda involved. Contrary to all of the assertions made here, clearly no report was put together by the Garda.
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What about the checkpoint? There has to be a report of the checkpoint.
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Deputy Shatter will be here this evening to deal with the Fianna Fáil motion of confidence and he will answer everything.
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Was his asthma an impediment to blood and urine tests?
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Listen to the experts on checkpoints.
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-----and there is a difference between the cases of Deputy Wallace and Deputy Shatter-----
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What is the difference with my case?
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One used Dáil privilege and the other did not.
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-----in that an offence was committed by Deputy Wallace which he understands, and in Deputy Shatter's case no offence was committed-----