Late sitting on legislation
Micheál Martin condemned the Government’s last-minute decision to extend debate until 5 a.m. as disrespectful and shambolic. Brendan Howlin defended allowing extensive debate on important legislation, rejected the criticism, and counterattacked Fianna Fáil’s record, while the Chair repeatedly sought order.
Last night's sitting of the House was shambolic and lamentable. It undermined respect for Parliament and how we conduct ourselves. The Government's approach was revealing in its absolute contempt for this institution. Initially we were to conclude at 10 p.m. but the debate was extended to midnight.
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Without warning, the Chief Whip texted the Opposition Whips at 9.57 p.m. to announce that we were to sit until 5 a.m. If he had properly organised the schedule for this Bill we could have been here at 9 a.m. and could have debated it until midnight. We could have done the sensible thing. It seems that the internal difficulties of the Fine Gael Party, in particular, were the ultimate determinant in how the House ordered its business and its votes.
Perhaps the mask slipped yesterday. The genesis might be found during yesterday's Order of Business, when the Taoiseach said he wanted to get rid of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill last night, come what may. Despite all the commitments given in the programme for Government on Dáil reform, changing the way we do things in this House and having meaningful debates, can anyone on the Government side seriously suggest that going until 5 a.m. represents a sea change or a democratic revolution in how we do our business, as the Government proclaimed two and a half years ago? Throughout yesterday we witnessed intense pressure being exerted on certain Deputies. It was not pretty to see the pressure that Deputies Mulherin and O'Mahony came under. Ministers are entitled to intimidate and bully their own Members but they should not extend that instinct to the rest of the Parliament. They should show respect for this institution.
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It reveals an instinct and it warns the public about the approach the Government will take if the State is left with a unicameral system by the end of this year, courtesy of our referendum.
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The Deputy opposite has, like me, been in this House a long time. Late night sittings are nothing new. They are much less frequent now than during the earlier years of our membership of this House. We already had one late night sitting.
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It is not normal to sit until 5 a.m.
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I do not need the help of the columnist from the Sunday Independent. It is a normal part of Parliament. Other parliaments sit late to debate issues. The commitment of the Government on this important and sensitive legislation is to allow it the maximum time possible for debate. It has been unprecedented for two different sets of committee hearings to take place, to have an open ended debate on Committee Stage and for Report Stage to be given 13 hours thus far, with a further seven hours allocated today. Every Member with strong views on this matter, from various perspectives, can be heard and have their views recorded. The Deputy opposite would have something else to say if we foreshortened the debate.
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In regard to his comments on internal difficulties and Whips, we operate a whip system. That is normally the basis of how the Deputy's party operates.
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We meet to reach consensus within our parties after robust debate and then we act as a unit. That is the norm. It is rare that a leader cannot bring his own troops with him and then makes a virtue of necessity by pretending that somehow it is virtuous to allow people to express whatever views they like on an issue of this importance. Normally a party takes a collective view on these matters.
I sat through much of last night's debate and I watched it on the monitor when I could not be in the Chamber. The debate was sincere and robust. It is true that it was repetitive at times but it allowed every Deputy the opportunity to express his or her views on this important issue.
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It is not normal to sit until 5 a.m. on a Bill such as this.
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The Minister said it was normal. The public do not think it is normal. It reflects badly on the Parliament and what happened last night was lamentable and shambolic. The least the Government should do when it extends the time of sittings is consult the Ceann Comhairle. At least tell him and the Opposition Whips. A text sent at 9.57 p.m., just before the Chief Whip arrived into the Chamber, shows nothing but contempt for the Parliament.
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Is that not what happened on the night of the bank guarantee?
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It shows no respect for the Parliament. The Minister should accept it was wrong. There should be legitimate engagement with the Opposition in ordering business.
How this was organised was shambolic from day one. Remember, until we raised the matter, the proposition yesterday was to guillotine it. The Taoiseach said he wanted to "get rid of it". I put it to the Minister that he should read the programme for Government and what it has to say about the promised democratic revolution - Dáil reform and so forth. Over 50% of all Bills have been rushed through the House without any serious debate and guillotined. The Government has been far more regressive in terms of parliamentary reform than any of its predecessors. I put it to the Minister that this bodes ill in terms of the future of this House if the Government gets its way and tries to force through a referendum to have a unicameral system in this country.
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Whether we move to a unicameral system is a matter for the people. We will put it to them and will hear and respect their view on the matter. With regard to last night's debate being characterised by Deputy Martin as shambolic, I reject that.
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It was a proper debate in this House for those participating in it and it was passionate and real. What is shambolic is what occurred in the dying days of the Fianna Fáil Government, when it was left with just seven Ministers.
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That is your only defence. Defend your own.
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That was barely constitutional. The Opposition can shout us down if it wants, but if it wants a yardstick for a shambolic exit, that was it.
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If Fianna Fáil wants a yardstick for a shambolic end to a Government, it is when Ministers resign with such alacrity that Government is barely constitutional at the end.
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The Minister should watch what is happening in his own party.
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At the time, the then Government was looking at the prospect of reappointing Ministers who had resigned. That is a shambles.
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What has this got to do with last night's debate?
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We are now dealing with a difficult, sensitive and important piece of legislation. I know Deputy O'Dea has more views on this than Boris Karloff had faces.
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The Minister should stick to the question he was asked.
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This is an important issue for people and we are allowing the fullest possible debate. We are respecting the views of all and affording the opportunity for their views to be heard.
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The Government will not change anything.
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The Minister said in advance there would be no change to anything and that no amendments would be accepted other than his own.
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Please settle down. There are a lot of tired bodies in this Chamber, including mine, and my tolerance level is decreasing by the second listening to you lot shouting and roaring across the Chamber. Please allow Deputy McDonald to contribute without interruption. She does not need help from anybody.