The reports on how and why the Garda removed two children from their families in Tallaght and Athlone are disturbing on a number of levels. The fact that the children have been returned to their families has to be welcomed but we must also acknowledge the extreme distress the families experienced over the past several days. While the gardaí involved acted in good faith under section 12(1) of the Child Care Act 1991, which states "where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that - (a) there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child", following press coverage of a child in Greece, there was obviously an increase in the number of anonymous calls to the Garda concentrating on Roma families. Questions need to be answered regarding why actions were taken against this minority group in particular. Would these extreme actions be acceptable if the families concerned were Irish nationals? Children should only be removed in extreme circumstances and normally applications are made and private hearings take place beforehand. We need to know why these did not happen in this case. More than 9,000 applications were made last year alone but, as hearings are held in private, there was little media coverage.

The Minister for Justice and Equality has requested an internal report from the Garda Commissioner so that lessons can be learned and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is commissioning an independent report on the cases. If there were genuine and legitimate concerns on the part of the Garda, serious questions need to be answered. Why were the remaining children left in the families and why was it that one of the parents was not allowed to remain with the children while the DNA tests were being conducted? Why was the HSE not asked to make an assessment on the families prior to the removal of the children from their homes?

I agree with Deputy Troy that the reports we have heard on the removal of the two children from their families are disturbing on a number of levels and join him in welcoming the fact that the children have been returned to their families. I acknowledge the distress this has caused to the children and families concerned. Deputy Troy accepts that the gardaí acted in good faith on the matter. The first lesson that needs to be learned is that nobody should jump to conclusions. We need to establish the facts and, indeed, the answers to the questions raised by Deputy Troy. This is why the Minister for Justice and Equality has asked the Garda Commissioner to prepare a report on the two cases and why the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has asked the HSE to prepare a report. Both of those reports will go to the Ombudsman for Children, Emily Logan. We should see that played through.

I would like to know the nature of the complaints or information brought to the Garda that gave rise in the first place to the visit to the families' homes and how that was interrogated. The question then arises of the seriousness and immediacy of the risk to the health and welfare of the children, which form the circumstances in which a child may be removed from a family setting. I would like to know what immediate and serious threat to the children's health and safety was considered to justify their removal from their families. I would like to know how the decision was made, and by whom, and whether there were alternative ways of dealing with whatever issue had confronted the Garda short of removing the children from their homes and family settings. These are questions that the investigations and reports commissioned by the Ministers, Deputies Shatter and Fitzgerald, will have to address. I do not think any of us should prejudge the answers but we need to get the answers, the information and the reports placed in the hands of the Ombudsman for Children.

I thank the Tánaiste for his reply. We cannot go back to the days of see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. All of us have a responsibility and we do not want to see these cases being used as a deterrent to protecting children. At the same time, however, we have to prevent over intrusion into family lives. The right balance has to be achieved. One lesson that can be learned is that the Government needs to publish the legislation to provide for proper processes and procedures in dealing with child protection issues. This legislation was promised more than two years ago. Professionals working in the health services and child protection, as well as gardaí, are operating in a legislative vacuum and the Children First guidelines need to be put on a legislative basis and backed up in law. This legislation is overdue and it is an essential part of ensuring robust child protection structures. Can the Tánaiste give us a clear timeframe as to when the legislation will come before the House? In regard to the reports that are to be prepared, can he explain why the Garda report is internal rather than independent and indicate whether they will be given to the families concerned in addition to the Ombudsman once they have been completed?

Also deal with the racism issue.

We expect that the legislation will be published this session. As Deputy Troy will be aware, the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, has been bringing forward the guidelines and legislation. It is important to recognise this is not an issue of legislation; it is an issue of practice. The issue to be addressed is what happens in practice. We can have all the legislation and guidelines in the world.

What about what you did with the referendum?

There is also an issue of prejudice. Deal with that aspect.

The circumstances in which the Garda may intervene in a family situation and children may be removed for their own safety have already been established. The question that arises is what happened in this case. We must establish the facts. The intention is that those reports will be prepared over the next two to three weeks and will be given to the children's Ombudsman, who will liaise on them with the families. The dimension raised by Deputy Troy, namely, whether a group of people in our country are of a particular ethnic background or so on, clearly should not be given extra or special attention in child safety matters. I would be concerned if there was any element of that in these cases, but that is something that the report to be prepared must address.

No more than the Tánaiste, I do not wish to jump to conclusions about this case. We should not, as it would not be helpful. Perhaps we can imagine the scene - a knock at the families' doors and their children taken away, from what we can ascertain on the simple basis that their colouring did not fit the racial profile of the families concerned. A number of core and deeply troubling issues arise from these cases and what is already in the public domain. The first is the possibility of racial profiling and targeting of Roma families out of prejudice, fear or suspicion. We need clear statements from the House and the Tánaiste on behalf of the Government to the effect that no family or child will be discriminated against or targeted in any way on the basis of race, ethnicity, skin colour, eye colour or hair colour.

Hear, hear.

The second issue relates to the State's capacity to protect the rights of children. Many people following this story see the marked contrast between, on the one hand, last week's revelation by the children's Ombudsman of the HSE's failure to intervene over several years after a child made multiple allegations of rape or another report of 4,100 children who had been assessed by the HSE as needing intervention but having to wait more than three months for that intervention and, on the other, the heavy arm of the State in these cases. This is troubling. I do not wish these cases to undermine the State's capacity to protect our children, which is a fundamental role. However, there is a great amount of public disquiet about whether the State can move in willy-nilly and in an arbitrary fashion to take people's children from them. Will the Tánaiste categorically state that this is not the case?

The third issue relates to the nature of the proposed investigations. It is not satisfactory that the Garda would investigate the Garda or that the HSE would investigate the HSE.

Certainly not.

It would be better for the inquiry to be independent and under the auspices of the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, from the outset.

Deputy McDonald has raised three issues. First, she asked me for a categoric statement in respect of discrimination against any family or child on the basis of ethnic or other background. Let us be clear - all children and families in this country, irrespective of ethnic, religious and other backgrounds, enjoy the same rights. There can be no discrimination, targeting or special treatment. Irrespective of backgrounds, people have the right to be treated equally. This is clearly the position of the Government as well as every Member who sits in this House.

The second issue is that of reporting. Deputy McDonald is right in that this country has had a culture of not reporting the abuse of children. In some cases, people who were aware of child abuse did not report it for a long time. Happily, we are seeing an end to that culture.

We need and have a child protection regime that puts children and their safety first, but we must also ensure the way in which this regime is delivered, managed and operated is proportionate and sensitive. Allegations or information given to the Garda or authorities should be examined. Only in cases of a serious and immediate threat or risk to the safety or health of a child should that child be removed from a family. Other options must be explored.

As to the reports requested by the Ministers, Deputies Shatter and Fitzgerald, the Garda Commissioner's will be on the handling of the situation by the Garda and the HSE's will be on how it and its child protection workers handled the situation. The intention is that these two reports will go to the children's Ombudsman. We should then wait for her recommendations on what further steps might need to be taken. First, however, we need to establish what happened and get the initial reports. We will then hear the recommendations of the children's Ombudsman, who is independent and in whom I and Deputies have considerable confidence.

Although it is true to say that there was a culture in this State and beyond of not reporting child abuse, which occurred most commonly in the family home, the State has a much deeper legacy of institutional abuse and of failing to protect children. It also has a history of confiscating children. This is a part of the psychological landscape of how many people view the State and its incapacity to protect our children. We must acknowledge this, not play up to it. Many people judge this turn of events against that backdrop.

A question, please.

They see a hands-off approach in respect of the many children who are in genuine risk and crisis while the children in Tallaght and Athlone were arbitrarily taken from their homes.

A question, please.

I welcome the Tánaiste's emphatic statement of equality of treatment for every child and family-----

A question has not been asked.

-----but that must be real in practice as well as in rhetoric. It is not appropriate and will not build public confidence for the Garda to investigate itself or for the HSE to investigate itself. Why not give the investigative process to the Ombudsman for Children in the first instance and allow her independent office, which is charged with the rights and welfare of children, to take the inquiry from start to finish?

We need to reflect on what is important, namely, the safety of children. We all agree that the practices and neglect that formed part of our history in dealing with children must be put behind us. That is being done. The safety and welfare of children are being put at the heart of the entire child protection system.

As regards how that is operated, however, it has to be done in an accountable way. Many people have basic questions to ask about what happened. How did the gardaí arrive at a home and remove a child in circumstances where, as we now know, there does not appear to have been any basis for doing so? How did that happen? What was the report or information the gardaí had that led them to go to the house in the first place?

A bigoted busybody on Facebook.

We are over time.

The Minister was promising to lock up bankers and all he has done is to lock up children.

We need answers to these questions in order to establish the facts. What happened in the house and how was the decision made? What was the risk or danger and who made the decision? In the first instance, we will get reports from the Garda Commissioner and the HSE. We will place them in the hands of the Children's Ombudsman and let us see what report ensues. There may well be issues that we will then have to return to and address at that stage. In the first instance, however, let us hear what are the actual facts of what happened. We must get the basic questions answered and hear what the independent children's Ombudsman has to say about it.

This matter will be discussed further during Topical Issues later today. I call Deputy Donnelly.

Can we not pose questions to the Minister now?