Garda penalty-points whistleblowers
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn raises reports that the Garda Commissioner sought the return of files concerning the penalty-points scandal, warning this could obstruct the Committee of Public Accounts and discourage whistleblowers. The Tánaiste says the committee must work independently, the allegations require full investigation, and whistleblower legislation is advancing.
There are reports in this morning's media that the Garda Commissioner has demanded the return of files from the Committee of Public Accounts with regard to the penalty points debacle. I hope the Tánaiste agrees that this a disturbing development. We can recap what has happened. Two Garda whistleblowers were very concerned about practices surrounding the termination of penalty points. They reported concerns to the internal Garda confidential recipient in March 2012 and the issue went nowhere, so the whistleblowers were essentially stonewalled for months. In autumn 2012, under section 62 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, the whistleblowers passed their evidence to Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas, as they are entitled to do. No investigation that we are aware of had taken place within An Garda Síochána until the information was passed. The people in question were discredited and talked down afterwards. An internal Garda investigation that followed was not in the public interest, and there should have been an independent investigation. When the results of the investigation were published, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, sought to discredit the whistleblowers and downplay the extent of the scandal.
There were ongoing attempts afterwards to discredit the Garda whistleblowers, but they have now been vindicated. We now have the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which reveals that one in five motorists facing offences got off and half of all summonses that should have been served for road traffic offences were not carried through. It was a widespread problem and in some districts there were 50 times as many terminations as in other districts in the State. It was a major issue. We have seen revelations that senior journalists and one State solicitor allegedly had penalty points terminated.
The public must know all the facts. Will the Tánaiste ensure that the Committee of Public Accounts can do its work with the evidence it has and reveal the full facts of what was a scandal? Thanks to the whistleblowers, such events should not be repeated, as there are now clear directives to all gardaí concerning the termination of penalty points and the framework in which gardaí operate. Will the Tánaiste stand by the whistleblowers and protect them from this latest assault?
Comment on this
I have not had notice of the question and there is a level of detail in it about which I am not briefed. As I understand it, the Comptroller and Auditor General's report goes to the Committee of Public Accounts, and as far as the Government is concerned, that committee is free to do its job; we do not and will not seek to influence how it does its work. The Minister for Justice and Equality takes very seriously the allegations made, and they will have to be fully investigated.
It is fair to say that the Government has made its position very clear on whistleblowers. We introduced legislation for the first time in the history of the State to protect whistleblowers and prevent them from being discriminated against or dismissed from their employment. We are committed to the legislation which passed in the Seanad yesterday. Our position on whistleblowers could not be clearer. This is the first Government that has introduced legislation to protect whistleblowers so that people in the public service who become aware of any wrongdoing can bring it to the attention of the appropriate authorities, have it investigated and be sure there will not be recrimination against them.
As far as the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is concerned, that is a matter for the Committee of Public Accounts and the Government supports the committee in the role it has to exercise in dealing with the report.
Comment on this
I spoke to one of the whistleblowers this morning and he advised me that they were encouraged in correspondence by the Minister for Justice and Equality to bring all the evidence they have into the public domain and to the appropriate mechanisms within the State. The whistleblower has given the dossier of evidence he has to the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts. The Chairman would be prevented from doing his job if the Garda Commissioner demands the return of those files.
Comment on this
I acknowledge the whistleblower legislation that is being progressed and that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, is taking the lead in that regard. I also acknowledge that it was a commitment in the programme for Government. One could ask what message we are sending to potential whistleblowers. Let us imagine if people within the financial services sector had shouted stop. One could ask whether we would have the current crisis if legislation had been in place for such people.
In this case we have two very brave men, one of whom has had to leave the force, the other one who is thinking about leaving every day, who are under severe pressure for taking a stand and changing a system that was demonstrably wrong, as was proven conclusively by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Will the Tánaiste stand by the two whistleblowers and ensure that the evidence they have courageously given to the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts is fully examined by the committee and all the facts and lessons will be learned? Will he also give the legislation that is coming through the best chance to be a real success in the future?
Comment on this
It should not come as a surprise to anybody that the Minister for Justice and Equality would encourage whistleblowers or people who have information to bring it to attention. That is what he has done.
Comment on this
The Minister could have blown the whistle on himself.
Comment on this
An investigation is being carried out. As I understand it there is a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General and the matter is before the Committee of Public Accounts. It is the Government’s view that the Committee of Public Accounts should do its job and we support the committee in that regard.
We are in the process of bringing legislation forward on whistleblowers. The whistleblower legislation has passed in the Seanad and it will come before this House. As I understand it, the Bill extends the persons to whom information may be brought to their attention to include Members of the Dáil and Seanad. There should not be wrongdoing. Perhaps if we had legislation such as this in the past some of the wrongdoing that has taken place, to which Deputy Mac Lochlainn referred, would not have taken place. It is appropriate that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, is leading for the Government on the legislation because there are few people in this House who understand the situation as well as he does. In his case, information was brought to him about wrongdoing. He did not come to the House and make wild allegations but he sought to bring the information to the attention of the then Minister for Justice and ended up in the courts for his trouble. He was at considerable risk as a result of the entire process. We will now have whistleblowers legislation which will protect whistleblowers so that if people see something being done that is wrong they can bring it to attention and have it addressed. I look forward to seeing the Committee of Public Accounts doing its work on the report it has before it from the Comptroller and Auditor General.