During Private Members' business last week we debated a motion tabled by Fianna Fáil on the need for an independent international assessment of EirGrid's Grid25 proposals in regard to the upgrade and expansion of our national grid using only overground pylons. This matter is causing genuine concern across the country. Thousands of people have turned up at public meetings to voice their anger and concern about a range of issues, from the impact of this project on people's health to the character of our landscape and cultural heritage and on residential housing and amenities.

There is a fundamental problem in terms of the appalling way in which this issue is being handled by EirGrid. The consultation process in terms of addressing people's genuine concerns has not been full or meaningful. In particular, it appears the key decisions, namely, the erection of a single string of mega pylons from Knockraha in County Cork to Dunstown in County Kildare and the ruling out of any underground cabling, were made in advance of that consultation process. The consultation process was, therefore, narrowed to the single process upon which EirGrid had already decided. This has created huge concern across the country.

I am aware that the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, held an in camera session with his councillors at the recent Labour Party conference. I am aware also that during the debate on Fianna Fail's motion last week many Fine Gael and Labour Deputies said they supported the thrust of the Fianna Fáil motion calling for an independent international assessment of the options. We accept the need to modernise our grid but there are other alternatives.

A question please.

In Denmark, which is a country that is very focused on its energy agenda, pylons erected overground have been taken down and a different set of options in terms of its grid and power lines have been adopted.

Will the Taoiseach agree to an independent international assessment and will he confirm whether the Government has ruled out the issue of underground cabling?

The Deputy is himself not very clear in terms of what he is proposing. Debate on this issue has been ongoing for some time. There is always consternation and controversy in the country on issues such as the development of dual carriageways or motorways, the provision of gas lines or wind turbines or, in this case, upgrade and expansion of the electricity grid.

As leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Martin understands very well that our country cannot be left bereft of infrastructure for investment purposes. Unfortunately, we have not yet arrived at the point where it is possible to transmit power without cables. The question that then arises is how do we provide physical infrastructure that will have capacity for power which will result in locations being able to attract investment and, as a consequence, jobs. Everybody is aware that a major entity cannot be supplied with an inferior water pipeline and that infrastructure such as is required throughout the country cannot be provided without electricity provision.

The modern communications systems available to us today allow people to access torrents of information on every conceivable aspect of these developments. The Government does not speak for EirGrid. It has no function in determining whether it should recommend a particular, or series, of locations for the erection of pylons. The Deputy will be aware that the previous Government carried out an assessment on the cost of undergrounding a major line in the country from County Meath northwards, which assessment was that doing so would be three times more costly. Given the need for this grid, I am not sure people would be willing to agree to underground it, in respect of which there appear to be technical difficulties, if required to pay three times the cost to do so. There is a need for rational discussion on an issue as important as this. We all agree that the country cannot be left bereft of opportunities for the future. This means we must have infrastructure capable of providing electricity for industry, business and homes throughout the country.

While we have a degree of capacity now owing to the unfortunate circumstances within our economy, a time will come, with Ireland now being recognised by some influential economic entities as being the best country in which to do business, when we will have decide what it is we want to do. I agree with the Deputy that consultations with communities, many of which I have attended down through the years, must be full and real, take on board people's concerns, anxieties, fears and questions and deal with them in as comprehensive a manner as possible. I know that in some cases these consultations have not been as full as I would like. There is a need for a balanced and rational discussion on what we want to do.

I understand that a cable of this magnitude if buried will need to be dug up every so often using converters which are very expensive. I hear the arguments about other countries. In Finland, the 110 kV line was undergrounded and the 400 kV line was not. When visiting Japan, from which I returned only last week, I noted around the areas that I travelled that the pylons and power grids were located overground. This debate is ongoing. I would welcome if it can be conducted in a rational and commonsense fashion. People say they want jobs all over the country. We cannot have them without infrastructure such as water, communications, roads and power. How this infrastructure is provided forms part of that discussion.

The Government is not dictating to EirGrid. There is a process and procedure to be followed which is based on law. There was much protest when construction of the motorway from here to Waterford was proposed and in respect of the construction of other roads. Nobody wants to go back to the situation of not having that facility to allow commerce and business to thrive.

We have not had that comprehensive, full consultation about which the Taoiseach speaks.

It is ongoing.

The Taoiseach cannot in this case hide behind the regulator. Ultimately, this project will be funded by taxpayers' money. The problem is that EirGrid decided on one particular option and then sought to ram it down people's throats whether or not they liked it.

Fianna Fáil did the same when in power.

That is the problem in terms of this issue.

Order, please.

I am asking for an independent international assessment of the options. Grid25 is a big project. Nobody is questioning the need to modernise our capacity in terms of energy. What is at issue is the manner in which this is being done. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, this morning endorsed Fáilte Ireland's concerns.

Deputy Varadkar, was all over the newspapers today saying that he supports Fáilte Ireland's concerns about the damage and the risk, in its words, that cultural heritage amenities will be at and the risks for scenic landscapes throughout the country. There will be mega pylons across the Commeragh Mountains, for example.

A question please, thank you.

That is the view of the Minister, Deputy Varadkar. I accept that he is entitled to have that view and so am I. It is not only exclusive to Ministers to have concerns.

Could you put your question? Thank you.

This is a mega project. There are 1,300 pylons across the countryside in a straight line as decided by EirGrid. That is the way the company wanted to do it, although there were other options. The public never got any pre-consultation opportunities in respect of the EirGrid proposal, but that is the minimum that is required. It would make sense for genuine consultation to take place for all concerned. The concerns that exist are not figments of the imagination. The Taoiseach knows that and many people know it. It is on a scale that dwarfs anything in respect of roads or any other infrastructure projects that we have had. That is the reality. We can quote international studies. Other countries throughout Europe can do it, including countries that have a far greater record in terms of energy, moving away from fossil fuels and so on. Denmark is one such country. What are we afraid of in terms of a genuine international independent assessment of whether we are doing the right thing?

What was Deputy Martin afraid of when he was in power?

It is not only a question for energy, but whether it is the right thing for tourism, landscape and our cultural heritage, which are important considerations in the long term.

Deputy Martin is not saying what it is that he wants.

I am. An independent assessment.

No. Hold on.

Change the policy.

Deputy Martin says there are other options. I do not know what he is talking about when he says there are other options.

RPS did a series of work and produced a document.

As I understand it, we cannot transmit power without cables. Do we provide the country with capacity to have business and generate power for industry, and, therefore, economic expansion and jobs, or do we not? If we do, what is the way we do this?

I listened to the news this morning of a major case in Wicklow which was turned down by the planning appeals process and which was overturned by the Supreme Court. There was a case in which EirGrid was negligent in adhering to the planning process and the application for the major North-South interconnector was turned down.

As part of the programme for Government, the Minister appointed a panel of international experts which concluded that the cost of undergrounding a grid would be three times the cost of over-grounding it. Are we expecting everyone to have to pay three times the cost for their electricity?

That proves my point.

There is a process and a procedure to be gone through which is very exact.

There is a precedent where some of the grid was put underground.

I would be happy, as part of a full and open consultation in the House, to hear of Deputy Martin's other options, which would be able to provide capacity, power and infrastructure to deal with this matter.

Is the Taoiseach saying he has none?

People say to me that I am the Taoiseach and ask why can I not provide jobs all over the country. People are entitled to their concerns and objections relating to gas lines, wind turbines, pylons, motorway development or whatever.

Get out of the way.

This applies whether it is to supply water for this city for the next 50 years or to supply quality water for major infrastructure projects that need huge quantities of it and so on.

Do we want to deal with these problems or do we want to shove them aside? As far as I am concerned, we must deal with the future. We exit the bailout programme on Sunday. On Monday, we stand as a free member of the eurozone, with all the opportunities, constraints and securities of that.

We must plan for the future in a proper fashion. I am all for full wholesome and open consultations. I have never been a supporter of behind-closed-doors decisions. In this case, the GRID25 plan is not about our generation but the one coming behind us and whether we are in a position to have a system and structure that will deliver for the next generation and allow it to continue to belong among the best countries in the world in which to do business. That requires rational common sense discussion and I am prepared to have that from our point of view and from the Government's point of view. We do not speak for EirGrid. We do not have a role in directing that the company should put a line here or there.

Deputy Martin's proposal for an international assessment has already been addressed by the Minister in respect of the work of the independent international group, which concluded that it would be three times the cost in terms of underground as opposed to overground. If we appointed another, it might conclude it would be two and half times the cost or five times the cost. What is the answer?

That was then. Technology is advancing.

We still must provide power for infrastructure in order that we can have jobs in Donegal, west Kerry, Wexford and everywhere else. We cannot have that unless we have basic infrastructure. To do that, there is a process in law and a planning process that must be adhered to and determined independently. This is not a case of a Government diktat. It is a case of talking about what kind of country we want in the next 20 or 50 years. This is an essential part of it.

I take the validity of the issue Deputy Martin is raising. We need to have an open and accountable process in order that the people and the areas throughout the country get the capacity and the opportunity to benefit from economic expansion in the coming 20 years.