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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

NAMA allegations and withheld information

Summary

Micheál Martin seeks clarity over Garda investigations into former NAMA employees and the release of documents withheld by the Department of Finance. The Taoiseach says the Garda inquiries are ongoing, freedom-of-information decisions are independent, and suggests a Topical Issue debate for further detail.

In the past few days in the media and elsewhere there have been very serious allegations made about NAMA and its operations. My colleague, Senator Darragh O'Brien, has come to possess material, about which he has spoken in the Seanad and which he will be sending to the Garda Síochána. I understand from media reports that a dossier on the behaviour of a previous employee has been sent to the Garda Commissioner. Very serious allegations have been made which go to the heart of confidence and trust in an extremely important body that is acting on taxpayers' behalf. Certainty, confidence and trust in that body are essential and that is my only remit this morning.

One of the allegations being made which requires urgent clarification from NAMA is that an entire file on a person whose loan book was with NAMA was sent to a partner in a major global property company who was acting on behalf of that person's rival in advance of a major and high profile court case. That would be a shocking revelation if proved true; therefore, the issue cannot be left hanging; it needs an urgent response. Did this happen and if it did, is it just an isolated case or are there others like it?

It has also been asserted that property valuations have been manipulated, which is extremely serious. A person quoted in the material states: "There were perfectly good loans written down in the banks so as to keep the NAMA dream alive. I was the one they relied on to get the massive low valuations. I destroyed people with these valuations." That is extremely serious and cannot be left unanswered for any period. It is very important that we receive a very robust response from the Government and the Minister for Finance in this regard.

The relationship between the Department of Finance and NAMA must be clarified and should be articulated very quickly. Freedom of information requests were tabled to the Department in August 2012, but only six of 19 documents were given in response to these requests. The issue of the remaining documents is with the appeals commissioner. The Taoiseach knows that from the correspondence we have learned that the Barclay brothers were in contact with the Department about loan books in the IBRC. If we are to have confidence and trust, I ask the Taoiseach to say to the Department that it should withdraw any objection it has to releasing all of the material into the public domain in order to show it has nothing to hide. We must demonstrate that the Department, NAMA and key institutions are operating above board. Will the Taoiseach give an assurance that this can happen?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I can give an assurance that the Government is taking this matter very seriously. Yesterday I answered questions on it. I confirmed that the Garda was investigating a complaint in respect of an individual and that allegations had been made in regard to a second individual. The Garda has not come back to NAMA about that issue. This morning the Minister for Justice and Equality was advised by the Garda Commissioner that - I think people know this - there had been contact between NAMA and the Garda Síochána earlier this year with regard to another former employee. The Garda is awaiting a statement of complaint and supporting documentation. The Garda Commissioner also indicated that he had directed a senior officer to liaise with NAMA to ensure all of these matters of concern were fully pursued. I also understand the Committee of Public Accounts is in contact with NAMA about the investigations under way and that NAMA intends to assist the committee in so far as possible within the constraints of the ongoing Garda investigations. Where allegations of a criminal nature are made, the Garda is the appropriate authority to carry out the investigations.

The Deputy is aware that in respect of freedom of information requests, the Minister in a particular Department has neither sight of nor a function in what is agreed by the freedom of information officer in each Department to allow release. That is why there is an appeals system involving the Information Commissioner. It is not for the Minister to direct a freedom of information officer in any Department on what to release. The commissioner makes an independent decision in that regard.

The Deputy has made a serious point about an allegation that property valuations had been manipulated. I indicated yesterday that NAMA required the sale of all loans, properties and assets securing loans be conducted on a competitive and fully open market basis by suitably qualified and competent agents. In all these events NAMA insists on independent valuations of all assets. If an allegation is made of manipulation of valuations, it should be noted that NAMA requires an independent valuation of all loans, assets or properties dealt with. As I stated yesterday, a summary of a marketing campaign would be undertaken and all parties on a list expressing an interest in a loan or real estate would be contacted during the campaign. There would be a recommendation to accept the terms of the purchaser's offer, based on the best reasonably priced offer. There would be confirmation that the agent had reviewed the purchaser's confirmation and a statement disclosing any commercial relationship between the agent, the debtor, the purchaser or the ultimate beneficial owners in the past five years, or how any actual or perceived conflict of interest had been managed during a sales process. When the legislation was introduced, NAMA was exempt from freedom of information requests by the Government of which the Deputy was a member.

Comment on this

With regard to the issue of clarity and freedom of information, the only reason the matter is with the appeals commissioner is that someone has objected to releasing all the files in regard to the request. The body that has objected is the Department of Finance. Only six out of 19 documents were released. All of the material should now be released in the interest of transparency and to generate confidence.

I am not casting aspersions on anybody but I believe it is important that there be certainty, trust and confidence. When one sees the Department of Finance withholding documentation that might relate to overtures or representations made by a very significant player to the Department, it appears as though people are hiding something and using freedom of information mechanisms to prevent material from getting out.

The Taoiseach said the Garda was awaiting information from NAMA on this issue. For how long has it been doing so? When does NAMA expect to be in a position to co-operate fully?

The Taoiseach referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General. The latter is on record has having said he does not have the capacity, in terms of staff or otherwise, to audit NAMA, given that it is such a big behemoth. That is a key issue for us. There is a 10% turnover of staff in NAMA, which in itself is causing significant issues for the agency. Does the State actually have the capacity and personnel to audit NAMA? This is a key point in our attempts to generate confidence and trust in the organisation and what it is doing. It is ultimately about the taxpayer.

Comment on this

The Deputy’s party established NAMA.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Martin is well aware of the legislation that deals with the freedom of information system. Ministers in government do not have-----

Comment on this

I referred to the Department.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Is the Deputy talking about the Department or the freedom of information officer? Every Department has a freedom of information officer who deals exclusively with freedom of information requests. There is no contact between a freedom of information officer in any Department and the Minister or Minister of State. The officer makes his or her decisions independently. The law stipulates quite clearly that there is an appeals process, which is also independent. It might not be a good idea to get into the business of having Ministers state what should or should not be-----

Comment on this

There was no mention of Ministers.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

To be honest, I do not know the information that was released. I do not have access to it. I do not have any contact with NAMA.

Comment on this

It is approximately 15 months since the original request was made.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

If a Topical Issue debate is requested of the Minister for Finance, he may have more information to give than I have. I do not have contact with NAMA, obviously.

Comment on this

It is a bit more serious than a Topical Issue; it is not about a water scheme in Belmullet.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The law is very clear in so far as freedom of information officers and their responsibilities are concerned. The same applies to appeals.

The Minister for Justice and Equality confirmed that he was advised by the Garda Commissioner this morning that there had been contact between NAMA and the Garda Síochána earlier this year in regard to another former employee. That investigation is ongoing and will conclude whenever it concludes.

More recently, in August of this year, the Garda Síochána received a separate complaint from a firm of solicitors acting on behalf of a client. That related to the alleged disclosure of information by NAMA. The Garda has been awaiting the receipt of further documentation from the solicitors. The Garda will obviously fully investigate the matter if and when the information is sent to it. I cannot tell how long that will take or what information is involved.

I agree with the Deputy that we cannot allow activity of the kind alleged. One complaint is being followed through. Information was received in respect of the second but the Garda has not been in contact with NAMA about that. Obviously, it will follow it through if and when the information is presented. It is a matter of serious concern, given that NAMA has one of the largest property portfolios in the world.

Comment on this