The office of the Garda confidential recipient was appointed after the Morris tribunal, which investigated serious wrongdoings within the Garda in Donegal. It was set up to hear complaints from members of An Garda Síochána and, above all, to protect the integrity of the force and to offer full protection to Garda whistleblowers.

I have read a transcript of a conversation between the Garda confidential recipient and the Garda whistleblower, Sergeant Maurice McCabe. It makes for serious and grave reading. The import of the transcript is such that the Garda whistleblower is frustrated and there is a sense of disbelief that his complaints are going nowhere. Clearly, the transcript reveals efforts, if not subtle threats, that if the material that the whistleblower had ever got to the media, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, would come after the whistleblower. This is a grave situation in a democracy, particularly given the office involved.

I will give the House some flavour. The confidential recipient told the whistleblower:

If stuff was to get out into the public, the print media, I tell you something Maurice - and this is just personal advice to you - if Shatter thinks you're screwing him, you're finished. What I'm saying to you is, if stuff is to get into print broadcasting media, if Shatter thinks it's you, or if he thinks that it is told by the Commissioner or the gardaí, here's this guy again trying another route to put you under pressure, he'll go after you.

There is more. Basically, the confidential recipient suggests in the transcript that maybe the Minister is too close to the Commissioner and that, as a result, he will not deal with some of the issues. The confidential recipient makes it clear that he knows the Minister. He states: "I know Alan." He was appointed and is a Fine Gael supporter, as he is entitled to be, and we know that he made a donation. However, the sensitivity of the office now calls into question whether that was an appropriate appointment. The confidential recipient told the whistleblower:

Your complaints went to the Department of justice and that annoyed the Commissioner greatly. I'm sure it's going to be an embarrassment for the gardaí, a disaster for them. And, listen, if your complaints are exposed to the print media, it will make him an angry man.

That is truly shocking. There is more in these transcripts.

Deputy Wallace was the first to raise this matter in the House last week. Bar last night, I have heard no denial of the content of the transcript. There is an aural recording of it and I have read the transcript. Has the Taoiseach spoken to the Minister, Deputy Shatter, since this was first revealed last week? Has the Minister spoken to the confidential recipient about this exchange? Is the Taoiseach concerned? It seems that the confidential recipient was protecting the Minister, the Department and the Commissioner, but not the whistleblower. This is the sense that I take from it. Is the position of the confidential recipient now tenable, given what has been revealed via these transcripts?

I thank Deputy Martin for his comments and his question. Yes, I am concerned about it. I believe there is a matter of public interest here of the utmost importance that has to be dealt with. Now, the confidential recipient, as Deputy Martin is aware, was appointed under a statutory instrument introduced quite some time ago. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, has already made it clear that he is unhappy with the way that this has operated. Separate from this particular matter, he is intending and has stated his intention to bring in legislation to change the way it works.

I might say this, though. The Minister dealt with this in the House last night. He does not have any knowledge of the alleged conversation, of a transcription of the conversation or of a tape of that conversation, nor indeed is there any basis for implying that the Minister ever expressed the kind of views that are attributed to him in what has been alleged. Nor is there any basis for implying that the Minister ever had the conversation of any nature with the-----

Sorry?

Nor is there a basis for implying that the Minister had any conversation of any nature with the confidential recipient concerning the expressions of views by him. To suggest otherwise would be completely false. Now, the Minister has no access to, nor should he have, details of confidential conversations which take place between the confidential recipient and members of the Garda Síochána. That would completely defy the purpose of the statutory instrument in appointing a person for the receipt of confidential information in the first place.

As I said to Deputy Martin in the beginning, I regard this as a matter of fundamental importance. There is clearly a matter of public concern that needs to be dealt with here. Yes, I did speak with the Minister for Justice and Equality and I have asked the Department of Justice and Equality to give me a report on this incident, on the conversations as published and comments from the person concerned here. I await that.

The position is that, I think it is important that we should know whether a conversation of the nature reported took place, because it is absolutely important that there be confidence among the public in any confidential recipient. Why would anybody go to somebody if he or she does not have a trust or belief that the situation is above board? So, this is a matter of grave concern to me.

I think it is also important that no member of the force should feel in any way under pressure or under threat in his or her dealings with the confidential recipient, but that it would be a matter for the confidential recipient to consider whether there is a matter that should be addressed in allegations made by a member of the force. That was the purpose of setting up the confidential recipient in the first place.

So, as I said, separate from this the Minister has already said he is not happy with this arrangement and the way it is operated. For me, I have asked the Department of Justice and Equality to furnish me with a report on these transcripts, whether they took place or not, and comments from the person concerned. I regard that as being a matter of considerable public importance and we will deal with it.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply, but when I put this question to him yesterday, he was silent on it. There has been no comprehensive statement from the Minister on this matter. There is no evidence that he has been proactive in this regard since the issue was first raised on the floor of the House last week. The Taoiseach has answered some questions that were not asked. I have made no implications about the Minister. I simply made the point that the import of the transcript with the Garda confidential recipient was that the Minister would be an angry man if the complaint entered the public domain.

Hear, hear.

The entire purpose of the exchange seems to be that, no matter what else happens, the complaint must not get to the media. I have heard from other whistleblowers. The strategy seems to be to get some of this stuff into the courts, then to get mediation and then to reach a confidential agreement to settle matters. Much of this stuff never comes out.

We have had fine-sounding words and rhetoric about how we all want to celebrate whistleblowers and make life easy, but it is a lonely place to be for a genuine Garda whistleblower. The system trains its guns on the whistleblower. Whistleblowers are demonised and undermined. This is what has happened in recent weeks, given the saga of the Committee of Public Accounts and what happened with the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, yesterday. In the past 48 hours, the guns have been trained on the GSOC because it did not report to the Minister even though it had no obligation to.

I am sorry, but will the Deputy put his question, please? We are over time.

The entire machinery of the State and even some of the media pointed their guns in the direction of the victim and everything got messed up. The same is happening in this instance. The whistleblowers feel that there is no one out there. They feel that the entire system is against them, from the Minister to the Department. The quality and import of what they were saying were undermined. It is very serious.

We are heading in a direction. There are suggestions of some axis of collusion and a concerted effort to cover up this entire saga. The bottom line that emanates from this transcript is-----

Will the Deputy please put his question?

-----whatever else happens, this must not get into the media because it will make a lot of people in high positions very angry.

That would not be good for the whistleblower.

He has gone after politicians too.

The Deputy raised this yesterday in the House. When I left the Chamber, I read the transcript and I asked that the Department of Justice and Equality furnish me with a report on this matter, including comments from the person involved. This is a matter of public concern which interests us all.

The Deputy said I answered questions that were not asked. I said that there is no basis for implying that the Minister for Justice and Equality spoke to the confidential recipient about expressions that refer to him in the article which appeared as printed in the newspaper. The confidential recipient has to be seen to be a person who can be trusted. The Deputy speaks of an axis of collusion, of heading in a particular direction, of guns being trained on whistleblowers. This is a matter of considerable public concern. I have not spoken to the confidential recipient. I have asked that the Department of Justice and Equality furnish me with a report-----

Where did the Taoiseach get the transcript that he read yesterday?

-----including comments on this matter from the person concerned. I await that report as soon as possible. We cannot have a situation where members of the Garda Síochána who want to give information to the confidential recipient do not have trust in that person or do not believe that the information they give will be kept confidential and that their confidentiality will be protected. That is what happened after the Morris tribunal, and that is why the confidential recipient is appointed under a statutory instrument.

Where did the Taoiseach get the transcript he read after he left the Dáil yesterday?

I await that report from the Department of Justice and Equality, including comments from the person concerned, and I will act on it when I receive it.