Yesterday in the House the Taoiseach announced the appointment of a senior counsel to deal with very serious issues pertaining to a dossier I sent him. I welcome that and I hope for at least an inquiry. However, I ask the Taoiseach to intervene in one aspect of the saga and try to bring it to some meaningful solution. It relates to the assertion and allegation on the floor of the House that the whistleblower, Sergeant Maurice McCabe, and Mr. Wilson did not co-operate with the investigation conducted by the assistant commissioner, Mr. O'Mahoney, into the penalty points saga. When a serious allegation of non-co-operation against a serving garda is made on the floor of the House, it either needs to be stood up or withdrawn with an apology made to the person.

I have gone through this at great length. The Minister's speech this morning does not deal with that aspect of it in any comprehensive or adequate way. The Road Safety Authority made it clear to the Minister that it regarded it as a major failing that he was not interviewed and, in fact, communicated that to the Minister, Deputy Shatter, I believe in the presence of the Minister, Deputy Varadkar. When it was asked for its views on the inquiry, it sent its views to the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, outlining that this was the major failing of the penalty points inquiry.

Based on the record of the Committee of Public Accounts, it seems that the only person in the entire system who made the accusation that Sergeant McCabe did not co-operate was the Minister, Deputy Shatter. To be fair, the assistant commissioner, Mr. O'Mahoney, did not make that assertion. When the Commissioner was pressed by Deputy McDonald at a committee meeting, he said:

When I was responding to Deputy Ross, I did so in the context of whether these people had been interviewed. The report from the Assistant Commissioner, having looked at the allegations and established the facts, did not see a need [to interview these people] on the basis that the Assistant Commissioner had not uncovered criminality. Therefore, there was no need to defer to the Director of Public Prosecutions. However, had it been the case that he saw clear evidence, or even a suspicion, of corruption or malpractice within the allegations he had before him, I presume that would have triggered those people being interviewed.

No one along the way has ever suggested that he was interviewed or that he did not co-operate. The only person was the Minister. He has gone to great lengths to try to justify that but it does not stack up. The simple way out of this would be to have that very serious claim of non-co-operation withdrawn. That would be the simplest way out of it. It would bring some resolution and clear the person's name. The person is anxious that his name be cleared.

All of them.

I call the Taoiseach.

The Minister should-----

I ask the Deputy not to enter into this debate. This is Leaders' Questions.

I know, but this is a serious issue.

I ask the Deputy to allow the two leaders to speak.

This is a very serious issue and the Minister should own up.

The Deputy will have his chance to speak later.

The Deputy will never be a leader

The House is discussing a serious matter and a serious process has been put in place to deal with matters outlined in documents the Deputy gave me last week. At that time I said I believed he was right to give me those documents, and he was correct in doing that. It does not mean he was right in everything else, from my point of view, in his charges about maladministration and incompetence on behalf of the Minister.

The Minister, Deputy Shatter, set out this morning the chronology of events that happened here, the action that had been taken by him on receiving the documentation in the Department of Justice and Equality, and the follow-through on that, arising out of which came the O'Mahoney investigation being put in place. The Minister tried very hard to set out here his understanding-----

His understanding of the word.

----- of what the connections and the communication to Sergeant McCabe were. Obviously Sergeant McCabe had a different perspective on that. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, will be answering questions again at the end of this series of statements. I welcome the statement from Sergeant McCabe in respect of the process that is now in place. Deputy Martin asked me the question yesterday, and I reiterate for him that the senior counsel will engage directly with Sergeant McCabe in this matter, which is of considerable importance.

Members may now have their say during the course of statements today and the Minister will answer questions at the end of that. We now have a criminal lawyer to look at and assess the investigative methods and bring back a recommendation, hopefully before Easter. Let us see what that is. It also means direct engagement with Sergeant McCabe in regard to the matters Deputy Martin presented to me, which in part have been investigated either by the Commissioner, GSOC or in some references to the DPP.

The Minister has set out his point of view, including the communications and chronology of events as followed by him. People often have differences of opinion about what statements can actually mean. The Minister has dealt with this in his statement this morning and again yesterday.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. The Minister has not dealt with it this morning and, of course, we got a copy of his speech very late in the day during the delivery of his speech - I think for obvious reasons. He said that he relied on material that he received, detailing the content of a direction given to Sergeant McCabe on a related matter. No one has ever said and no one is saying that the inquiry team ever invited Sergeant Maurice McCabe to anything. It did not text him, e-mail him or interview him. That is a fact.

The Minister is now relying on one letter from an assistant secretary, which again did not invite him to any inquiry or whatever and only advised him to bring information to what was described as "his authorities". He said: "The situation is further complicated by the fact that between the finalisation of the O'Mahoney report and its publication, he declined to take up an offer from assistant commissioner O'Mahoney". It was not between the finalisation and publication of that. That conversation took place in the aftermath of the report having been sent to the Minister. The bottom line is that he was not asked and the Commissioner said at the Committee of Public Accounts that he was not asked.

Does the Deputy have a question for the Taoiseach?

At no stage did the assistant commissioner, Mr. O'Mahoney, say that he did not co-operate. No one ever made that allegation until the Minister stood up on the floor of the House and said it. He is the only person who has made the allegation, which does not stack up at all.

I thank the Deputy.

A whole range of opinions and evidence would suggest the Minister was wrong in saying what he said. Sometimes it is much simpler to simply acknowledge that. I ask the Taoiseach to ask the Minister to withdraw the statement he put on the record of the House which is upsetting the person concerned, is not true and does not accord with the facts.

I thank the Deputy.

He was not invited in any shape or form to be interviewed by the O'Mahoney inquiry team, as the Commissioner said on the record of the Committee of Public Accounts when pressed by Deputies McDonald, Ross and others. It was very clear. This has become an issue because the Minister made a big mistake in saying that in the House. Everybody now has to track all over the place and trawl everywhere to see if they can get some document or something that defends what the Minister said in the House. It is only undermining the credibility of all the other actors in this saga.

The Minister should put up his hand and accept responsibility.

Deputy Martin is focusing on a political point.

No.

They are facts about the harm that was done to a man.

Yes he is. The Minister has said he respects whistleblowers - he said that in his statement.

It depends on where the whistle is.

He is not satisfied with the Act which has been in place for some time and is now in the process of being changed. I am glad the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality will hold public hearings on how this might be restructured or reformed so that, based on the lessons learnt from all of this, it will not happen in the future.

The Deputy, as the leader of his party, understands that it has not worked in the way that people might have expected, so we have to change it, and these events have happened. It is also important that the Minister spelt out his series of actions in response to the charges that he did nothing following the material being received in the Department of Justice and Equality. The Minister is not one to deliberately mislead this House, no more than any other Minister - that is a serious charge.

He did.

From his perspective, he set out what his understanding of that was. Other people can have a different view as to what communications-----

If the Taoiseach believes him why did he appoint Seán Guerin?

He knew that he was not-----

-----they received from the commission or whatever might be.

Now that the facts do not support the assertion.

Deputies, please.

Deputy Martin knows-----

You wrote to him about being interviewed.

-----that a much more serious issue are the allegations that were made by Sergeant McCabe in respect of the much publicised tragic case-----

The facts do not support the assertion now.

-----of the murder in Limerick, but also allegations of Garda incompetence and misbehaviour in regard to assaults and other issues. That is the much more serious matter that we need to deal with here.

What he said in the House.

Ignore the other one.

The senior counsel appointed by Government will now engage directly with Sergeant McCabe in regard to the allegations that the Deputy Martin gave me.

Therefore, the Taoiseach does not believe the Minister.

Sergeant McCabe sent a communication to the Department of the Taoiseach in April last year where he said, when he was speaking to the assistant commissioner:

I again remarked that I was concerned and seriously concerned that I was never contacted or interviewed and I informed the Assistant Commissioner that I had seen tens of thousands of corrupt terminations on PULSE and I hoped his report would reflect this. Alarmingly, he then asked me if I wanted to speak to someone on his investigation team and I ended our call having expressed concern about him not interviewing me.

This has happened.

That was after the inquiry was finished.

After the fact.

Yes, but the report was not published and the Minister already said that in that event, if amendments had to be made to it then they would be made.

He made the charge of non-co-operation.

The Deputy will have the opportunity to hear the Minister again in response to the statements here this evening.

The Taoiseach is making it worse.

It is very weak.

The Minister has dealt with this aspect this morning in terms of the communications that his Department-----

Will the Taoiseach meet with the Minister, Deputy Shatter, and discuss it?

-----had following Deputy Martin's charge of no action being taken by him on receipt of very serious allegations received in the Department of Justice and Equality.

Then why did you appoint Seán Guerin?

The Minister has pointed that out. Deputy Martin gave me these allegations, this documentation last week.

It is because he worked for Fine Gael in the tribunal.

The Government has responded. There were three decisions yesterday-----

-----the direct engagement between the senior counsel and Sergeant McCabe, and I hope we can move on to find out the truth-----

The Taoiseach does not believe in it.

-----of the very serious matters that were raised about assaults and other elements of allegations of misconduct, incompetence or poor behaviour by gardaí. The bigger picture that the Deputy Martin and everyone else wants is that we have a Garda force that is transparent, accountable and competent and that the oversight body of GSOC can be reformed in a way that reflects that accurately for the citizens of our country.