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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Rehab governance and lobbying

Summary

Micheál Martin sought accountability from Rehab executives and questioned the ethics of paying directors to lobby Ministers. The Taoiseach said he lacked information, supported legislation on lobbying and transparency, and believed charities should not pay personnel to lobby.

Rehab Group has appointed the independent management consultant, Dr. Eddie Molloy, to advise on strategy, rebuild morale within the organisation and repair a damaged reputation, according to its own press release. It also talks about the damage done to other charities because of the serious issues raised regarding the operation of Rehab. Many issues have emerged recently, in particular the necessity for the former CEOs Mr. Frank Flannery and Ms Angela Kerins to ensure they appear again before the Committee of Public Accounts. The issues are serious and involve the expenditure of a considerable amount of public money and the organisation paying for the lobbying of Departments, including the Departments of Education and Skills and Social Protection. The organisation, allegedly, paid its director Mr. Flannery for lobbying the Government on a range of issues, including the charitable lotteries issue and National Learning Network. Given that Mr. Flannery had unparalleled access to the Government, the Taoiseach in particular - he enjoyed a pass from Fine Gael to enter Leinster House unhindered - the issues are serious. Was the Taoiseach aware at any stage that Mr. Flannery was being paid by Rehab to lobby Ministers and Departments? Does he agree with me that there is a serious question mark over the ethical correctness of such action? Does he believe it is correct and proper that a section 39 body such as Rehab, that enjoys regular engagement with the Government and Departments because of the nature of its relationship with the State, should pay its director to lobby Ministers and Departments? I do not, but I would like the Taoiseach's view on it. Does he accept that it is extremely important that Mr. Flannery and Ms Kerins respond to the request from the Committee of Public Accounts and appear before it to ensure full transparency on all of these issues?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I have no information on any dealings Rehab Group had with any individual. My only engagements with the man the Deputy mentioned have been purely political in terms of elections and constituencies. That is why we are introducing legislation on freedom of information, whistleblowers and lobbyists. It is only right and proper that there be full accountability and transparency about these matters. I have no information on whether organisations were paying personnel to meet people with political responsibility. For a very long time my belief has been that anybody involved with a section 38 or section 39 organisation should appear before the Committee of Public Accounts, as that would be in the interests of charities. We have already agreed that when people make donations to their charity of choice, they need to feel happy that all of that money will go for the purposes for which it is intended. That is why the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, has introduced a regulator which will change the nature of the perception of charities for the good of everybody. When the regulator is in situ, auditing the accounts of charities, people will know everything is as it should be.

My view for a long time has been that everybody associated with section 39 organisations should of course be prepared to go before the Committee of Public Accounts and deal with any questions that may arise.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach answered two from the three questions, which I appreciate.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

What was the third?

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The first question was whether the Taoiseach was aware of the issue and the second concerned appearances of Ms Kerins and Mr. Flannery before the Committee of Public Accounts. The other question was whether it is right and ethically correct for an organisation such as Rehab to pay one of its directors to lobby Ministers and Departments. Does the Taoiseach believe that is right, given the very regular access that such bodies, like Rehab, would have to the Government? Department officials meet representatives of these organisations on a regular basis to discuss service plans and a range of service level agreements. Does the Taoiseach believe it is right that these organisations should pay directors significant sums of money for the purpose of lobbying Departments and Ministers? This case is unique, as the Taoiseach has stated the individual concerned had unparalleled access to Ministers, particularly with this Government. He had a pass for Leinster House and so on. To put it mildly, one's reaction would have been one of some surprise when it emerged that this was the case, as reported by The Irish Times. A body such as Rehab should not in any shape or form have to pay anybody to lobby Departments, and the Government should be clear in instructing such bodies that they should not pay people to lobby the Government, particularly when the Government normally enters into relationships by means of service plans etc. There is something amiss in that respect. Does the Taoiseach believe it right and ethically correct for an organisation like Rehab to pay a director to lobby Departments?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The question is one for Rehab to answer, whether it has paid any individual to carry out lobbying or whatever else. I have already stated that I meet many people, although I do not know if they are paid by organisations.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I agree that is why we need lobbyist legislation, and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform will introduce that in order to bring about transparency and accountability. I do not believe charitable organisations should pay personnel to lobby Ministers or anybody else if they operate on such a charitable basis. I do not have any information about that. The Government is very open to dealing with all organisations where it is appropriate and notes are taken in those meetings. I hope I have answered the Deputy's questions.

Comment on this

The Deputy will cause mass unemployment among his former colleagues.

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It might affect some of the Minister's former colleagues in the tobacco industry.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

Order, please.

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The Deputy could tell us for what the Taoiseach should look out.

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Another comedian.

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The Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, is for the birds.

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The Deputy has been waiting to say that for a while.

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