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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Water charges and affordability

Summary

Micheál Martin challenges the Government over rising water charges, child allowances, medical exemptions, boil-water notices and affordability for low-income households. The Tánaiste defends the infrastructure investment and economic rationale, says the regulator will clarify charges for affected households, and states that medical conditions can be self-reported, though Martin argues his questions remain unanswered.

I put it to the Tánaiste that there is mounting concern and, indeed, anxiety and fear among many people in regard to the prospect of water charges, which are coming in next month. That concern is genuine and many people will be hearing it on the doorsteps in particular.

There is also a lot of confusion. The Taoiseach said originally that the average cost would be about €240 but we now know the regulator has upped that by 20% to €278. The Taoiseach said children would be free but we now know that is not the case. They will not be free. They will have a daily shower and one daily toilet flush - that is what children are getting. We know that a family with two children over 18 years of age in full-time education could be paying up to €594, which will have a very severe impact on families in that cohort.

Yesterday, I raised the issue of the boil-water notices and how incomprehensible I find it that people who have contaminated water coming in will have to pay for it, in essence, notwithstanding a basic principle that people should not have to pay for water that is contaminated. This morning we learned, courtesy of the Irish Independent, that people with medical conditions have not been provided for in any distinct way. I would appreciate clarity on that. Apparently, the Government has failed to draw up a list of specific ailments which would allow people to qualify for subsidised bills, given they would have particular medical conditions. We have had numerous parliamentary questions and replies from the former Minister, Mr. Hogan, and the Minister for Health saying they would be drawing up such arrangements or that there would be consultations. We have people in apartment blocks who are already paying up to €1,000 or €1,500 in management fees, who feel they are already paying for services and that they will be paying on the double.

The fundamental question I put to the Tánaiste is this. We had the Nevin Institute in with us recently and its representatives said the charges system the Government is bringing in, based on volume, is regressive and will impact disproportionately on lower income groups. Throughout the Government structure, there is no linkage to ability to pay and no linkage to income. Irrespective of how low a person's income is, they are expected to pay it. As a minimum, will the Government review the structures it has introduced and put in place an ability to pay framework?

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That was not in the Fianna Fáil proposal. It was €400 per house regardless.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

We are over time.

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That would be fair and would help people on the lowest incomes. Will the Tánaiste clarify the situation in regard to medical conditions and people with significant ailments who require large volumes of water due to their conditions? Will she indicate the current Government position in regard to people in that situation?

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I thought the Deputy might want to talk about the economy and the fact the economy, according to the CSO, is actually performing very well-----

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So scrap the water charges.

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-----that it is not a credit-fuelled bubble recovery and that it is, in fact, around people going back to work.

Irish Water - I say this in the context of Deputy Martin's own party's proposals in regard to the IMF plans - was to have a very significant investment package and a programme of water charges which were to be flat charges of, on average, €400. That is what-----

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Theirs are even more than that.

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The documents are there. They were Fianna Fáil's own proposals so, obviously, its members have changed their minds in terms of where it is now at-----

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Will they fix the pipes and get on with it? They are three years in power and they have not fixed one pipe.

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-----to, in fact, being rather cynical, seeing they entered into international obligations to agree to flat water charges of €400. Their current position is cynical in the extreme.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Hear, hear. Well said.

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In the context of the recovery of the economy, I do not think it makes sense because the actual investment programme of a couple of billion euro into really decent water infrastructure for the whole country is an essential provision for the economy recovering-----

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There is no extra money.

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That will not wash.

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-----and for the annual creation and employment of an additional 1,000 to 2,000 people. If we want to draw very strong international investment into Ireland, as today's CSO figures show-----

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Answer the question.

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The output of that is clear in today's figures, which show we are probably the strongest growing economy in Europe at this point. We see lots of people-----

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A Deputy

That is nonsense.

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These are the CSO's figures, not my figures. They are independent figures by a respected organisation.

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What about the comrades in the Nevin Institute?

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Let me explain. If we want to have-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Hold on a second. Would you all please stay quiet? Deputy Martin asked a question and Members should allow a reply without interruption, and show some respect to the House.

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What about an answer to the question?

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She is not in Wexford now.

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If we want to have a virtuous cycle, which is what the economics of this country recovering is all about, we want investment, we want employment and we want an environmental situation which stops the widespread wastage of water.

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We want to be able to drink the water.

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Is that going to be done in a couple of months? Was the original ESB investment into this country done in a couple of months? If Deputy Martin or many of the Opposition had been around at the time the ESB was developed in Ireland, they would have been out there with placards opposing the development of the ESB.

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A Deputy

You guys tried to fight it.

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Essentially, they are simply being-----

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People cannot drink dirty electricity.

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They are simply being cynical and hyper-political in the context of what they were saying yesterday about Roscommon.

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On the boil-water notices, the Taoiseach made it very clear yesterday that the Commission for Energy Regulation will shortly produce a ruling in that regard and the anticipation-----

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It is toothless.

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It is the legal structure we are required by the European Union and by international-----

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The commission needs to get a toothbrush.

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It is like "The Late, Late Show" - no answers here.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

We are over time, Tánaiste. I call Deputy Martin.

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The commissioner will, I anticipate, very quickly produce a ruling in that regard which will mean that people on boil-water notices will not have to pay for the delivery of water to their home.

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That is not true.

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On the health area-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

You should not address the health issue. You are over time. Thank you very much. I call Deputy Martin.

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It is provided for in the form, Deputy Martin.

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That is the first form.

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What about the €400?

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They cannot even fix the pipes.

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The Tánaiste did not answer the questions that I asked.

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I did.

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If, indeed, the economy is doing as well as she was saying-----

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Does the Deputy not believe the CSO figures?

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-----why is the Government then charging families with two adults up to €594?

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Those are the facts.

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That is excessive for any family with one or two 18-year olds in full-time education. The Government now has the leeway to do something about it - that is my point.

The fundamental question I asked concerned the ability to pay.

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There was nothing in their proposal about it.

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I met a widow the other day who is on €183 when the property tax is taken out.

She does not know where she is going to get the money to pay. That is the question I asked her. She is the Minister for Social Protection. This is why I asked about people on the lowest incomes because the system conceived by Fine Gael in its NewERA document in terms of utility, regulator and full cost recovery rather than sustainable recovery is the model the Government has gone for. We did not go for that particular model.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

You did.

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The bottom line is this. Equally, I say to the Tánaiste that I remember well when she said before the election that the Labour Party was against water charges.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Would the Deputy put his question? He is over time.

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I have two specific questions which the Tánaiste refused to answer. The bottom line is that there are people who do not have it. They are on very low incomes.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Would the Deputy please resume his seat? He is over time.

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Analysts are saying that the Government's system is hitting them more than anybody else. Is the Tánaiste going to do something about that over and above what she has already done?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy please resume his seat? He is over time.

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Could the Tánaiste answer the question?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Before the Tánaiste replies, I want to make it quite clear to anybody who started this shouting racket on the second day of the 2014-2015 Dáil that I will not put up with it. I will switch off the microphones and that will be the end of it so the Members will not be heard outside here. They either obey the rules or change them. If they do not have enough time, it is up to the Whips to agree a new formula but we are not having this situation every day where we have to ask people to adhere to the rules. It is my job to apply them and, hopefully, I will do so fairly.

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I said that I anticipate that the CER will report shortly and publicly in respect of the "boil water" notices. I hope the Deputy understands that. The Taoiseach told him that yesterday and I will repeat it today if it is helpful.

In respect of the second issue about which the Deputy asked, as he knows, the form that has been sent out to people by Irish Water asks them to give information about medical issues. The Deputy seems not to want to trust people. Irish Water is asking, as is common in income tax reporting, for people to self-report. So that is the answer to the second question.

The third question concerned people on low incomes and the widow on social welfare whom the Deputy met. As I said on a number of occasions, at the time when the new Government was appointed, the Taoiseach and I agreed that there would be a household water support payment. It is published in all of the documents relating to the programme for Government so let me explain it and spell it out in some detail. The first point is that it will apply to anyone on the household benefits package. It will be €100 per year paid on a quarterly basis and will apply specifically to people who are on the household benefits package, including pensioners. It will apply to people on disability and carer's payments and those in receipt of domiciliary care allowance. That is an estimated figure of 410,000 households at a cost of €42 million that has been fully agreed and provided for by both parties.

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