I received a letter from you this morning, a Cheann Comhairle, about Standing Orders and their application to the Technical Group. You told us that Members are selected to speak on the basis of an administrative convenience, and that if certain people are not included on our list of speakers, you are likely to call them. How do you think it will work in terms of administrative convenience because if any one of us goes to you and says he or she did not get five minutes or ten minutes speaking time, will you administer the entire Technical Group?

The answer to Deputy Murphy's question is "No". I do not interfere but if I get complaints that people have been excluded, it is my duty to see that they are entitled to speak in this House.

Nobody in the Technical Group has been excluded.

I make no apologies for doing that. It is my preference that parties and groups would arrange their own business, but at the end of the day it is my responsibility in accordance with Standing Orders to call speakers. It is a matter of convenience that lists are prepared in a particular order but it is entirely a matter for the Chair as to who is called. If I receive a complaint that people are not being afforded the opportunity to make a contribution, I have a duty to make certain that they do, irrespective of whether one is a member of the Technical Group or any other group for that matter.

So if-----

It is not a matter to be debated on the Order of Business.

I think it is.

No, it is not.

I think it is, a Cheann Comhairle.

No, it is not.

It is.

It certainly is not.

It is.

It is not a matter for the Order of Business as to what arrangements apply to the Technical Group in respect of speakers.

But is it not part of the Order of Business?

Essentially, you are not interfering in any other group.

We live in a democracy which means that people are entitled to speak.

That was the arrangement when one is elected to a group.

We received conflicting legal advice.

I do not care what legal advice the Deputy got. I go by the Standing Orders of this House.

We got legal advice from your office, a Cheann Comhairle.

We got conflicting legal advice from you, a Cheann Comhairle. You gave us the legal advice.

No.

We sought the advice of senior counsel.

Excuse me. Members should read Standing Orders and they will see who is entitled to call speakers. That is the Chair.

We had Standing Orders legally interpreted.

We sought the advice of senior counsel.

It depends on the legal interpretation of Standing Orders. Your legal interpretation, a Cheann Comhairle, was wrong.

I am sorry but the Deputy has had her run. If she needs to discuss the matter further, she can raise it at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. That is what it is there for.

We sought the advice of senior counsel.

I will now call Deputy Cowen.

We respectfully ask that you wait until we can give you the legal advice.

Deputy Murphy is not raising the matter on the Order of Business. She is a member of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. She can bring the matter to the committee. I call Deputy Cowen.

You are the one who interprets Standing Orders.

I call Deputy Cowen.

You are the one who is interfering with the running of the Technical Group.

Deputy Murphy has made her point. I call Deputy Cowen.

You are interfering, a Cheann Comhairle.

Deputy Halligan should stop shouting.

You are. I am not shouting. I am only making a point.

We have sought advice.

Deputy Murphy should read Standing Orders. I call Deputy Cowen.

You would not do it with the Fine Gael or Labour parties so why would you do it to the Technical Group?

I call Deputy Cowen.

You are interfering with the Technical Group.

Why would you interfere with the running of the Technical Group when you do not do it to Fine Gael or Labour?

It is Fine Gael, not fine Gael.

I am not interfering.

You are making it impossible

What is the difference?

Deputy Murphy should resume her seat.

No.

Deputy Murphy should please resume her seat.

No, you are interfering with the running of a democratically elected group.

If Deputy Halligan does not stay quiet he will find himself outside the Chamber.

You can do what you like but you are interfering with the running of a bona fide, democratic political group.

You are interfering, a Cheann Comhairle.

Deputy Murphy is obviously seeking to be thrown out. She should resume her seat.

You have no right to interfere. You do not interfere with the running of any other group in the Dáil and you should not interfere with the running of this group.

You are interfering.

Deputy Murphy should resume her seat.

The sitting is suspended for 15 minutes.

You can suspend it all you like.

I call Deputy Barry Cowen.

Ceann Comhairle-----

I have called Deputy Barry Cowen. Resume your seat, please.

I ask that you afford us the courtesy of giving us time to consider the legal advice and to get alternative legal advice. I do not know how this is going to work. You are trying to demolish the Technical Group-----

I am on my feet. The Deputy should show some respect for the Chair.

You are trying to make it unworkable. Do I send in 17 names for you to decide-----

If you resume your seat for a minute I will explain something to the Deputy.

We have to employ two people and others want to contribute-----

The sitting is suspended for another 15 minutes.

I call Deputy Barry Cowen.

I would like to continue to-----

The sitting is suspended for 30 minutes.

I call Deputy Barry Cowen.

The Independents are being discriminated against-----

Deputy, I am sorry, I am not going to through this charade again, nor am I-----

It is not a charade.

It is gross political interference.

It is political interference in a group.

Nor am I going to allow the proper business of the House to be disrupted when you know you received a letter from the Clerk of the Dáil outlining the true procedures.

You are disrupting our business.

The procedures have been outlined-----

You are attempting to chair the Technical Group and we will not allow you to do it. You cannot do that.

Could you just let me speak? You do not need to shout me down.

I am not shouting at you.

The Clerk of the Dáil has outlined the procedures relating to people joining a technical group. He has done that independently and I just apply the rules. There is no point in having a go at me or shouting at me. That is not going to solve anything. The reality is-----

The Clerk of the Dáil gave conflicting advice. He already gave us legal advice that was incorrect-----

Hold on a minute.

-----so why should we believe the Clerk of the Dáil?

Hold on a second, if you wish to change that Standing Order, have it debated at the Committee on Procedure and Privilege.

It is controlled by the Government.

Deputy Catherine Murphy is a member of that committee. There is no point in delaying the proceedings of this House because it is not going to be solved.

That committee is controlled by the Government.

We got a totally different ruling on that Standing Order.

Either Deputy Murphy resumes her seat and allows Deputy Cowen to make his contribution or I will have to ask her to leave the House.

I very much regret this. It is being made impossible for us.

I am sorry. If you are not prepared to adhere to the rules of the House-----

It is being made impossible for us to-----

-----I will have to ask you to leave the House.

We are trying to defend basic democracy on behalf of the people.

Are you listening to me, Deputy?

I am.

If you are not prepared to resume your seat and allow Deputy Cowen speak, I will have to ask you to leave the House.

This is a gross-----

I have no choice and I very much regret that. I will leave the House but this is discrimination against the Independents.

There is no discrimination against Independents.

We are not being allowed-----

I have been through it all. I ask you to leave the House.

You are deciding who should speak for the Independents.

Is Deputy Murphy leaving the House?

No. She is representing us.

This Deputy is representing all of us.

I am addressing Deputy Murphy. Are you leaving the House?

I believe I am speaking in a representative capacity with the rest of the Technical Group.

Absolutely. She certainly is.

If you are not prepared to leave the House I am afraid I will have to move to Standing Order 62.