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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Irish Water governance and investment

Summary

Deputy Murphy says public distrust of Irish Water reflects problems with bonuses, PPS-number requests, costs and governance, while acknowledging underinvestment. The Taoiseach promises reforms and argues that affordable contributions are needed to fund infrastructure, accountability and future investment.

I wish to convey the sympathy of the Technical Group to the family of the late Joe Walsh.

This week the Government employed its best agenda strategies to try to detract public attention from Irish Water and, to a certain extent, it has succeeded. It is no longer the leading headline in the news but the Government should not confuse the media narrative with public sentiment. There is nobody on the street or who answers a door on which one knocks who will not raise this issue. This is not about a small number of people but about the large numbers who were out protesting. This is a general reaction from people.

The figures of €80, €200, €240, €500 or take one's pick are the kinds of figures raised over the past few months but three weeks before the deadline when forms must be submitted, people do not know what they are signing up to. This morning we heard about the insurance implications. We did not have the time to consider them because the legislation was rammed through so quickly. With three weeks to register, people have no idea what they will pay, what the cost will be to run Irish Water and how the 49% of water leaking will be reduced. People also have fears in regard to the handing over of personal data. These issues are as relevant today as they were when they were first raised.

In the past week, Irish Water has for the third time issued a new data protection statement which is buried in its website. It hardly measures up to the requirement of facilitating informed consent. A letter sent to me by the former Data Protection Commissioner states that the Water Services Act was designed so as to circumvent existing data protection legislation, meaning that normal restrictions which would and should apply have in the case of Irish Water been set aide. Even some of the Taoiseach's backbenchers are advising people not to include their PPS numbers on the Irish Water form. Clearly, they do not have confidence in Irish Water's ability to securely handle that personal data. Does the Taoiseach have confidence? Does he accept there are legitimate concerns in regard to the requirement to hand over PPS numbers? Will he end that process? Does he agree that asking people to register for something which they have no idea how much it will cost is deeply unfair? Does the Taoiseach have confidence in Irish Water?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

There is no question of attempting to detract attention from the issue of Irish Water. It has been debated up and down the country ad nauseam for a number of weeks and there has been so much misinformation and inaccuracy out there that is has lent itself to the confusion and anxiety people have.

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That is rubbish.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That is why all of the issues which have been raised will be dealt with by Government next week.

The structure, as currently applies, in respect of PPS numbers is for versification of eligibility for a household allowance. In respect of children, the PPS number requirement is for two purposes only, namely, to validate that it is a legitimate PPS number and that it refers to a child. It is not for names or locations in that sense. All of these matters, including PPS numbers, bonuses, management, communications and so on, will be dealt with comprehensively next week.

I was in Galway yesterday.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The point I would make to Deputy Finian McGrath is that Irish Water has not told the story that it is very beneficial for many areas. For instance, in the waste water treatment plant in Galway, the reconfiguration of the major contract saves €100,000 per month. Irish Water has identified the solution for Williamstown in east Galway where 1,000 people got boil water notices last week. Deputy Ray Butler reported to me that the overflow from the waste water treatment plant in Trim, County Meath, destroyed elements of the water system. It cannot go on like this.

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The Government is not spending money dealing with it. It is all going to Irish Water.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is not just about fixing the leaks but about investing properly for the future. There are 850 treatment plants around the country, 500 of which are inadequate and inferior. This city is on a knife edge. We need to build and to provide for the future because the economy is on the increase and is improving. As that happens, there will be further investment and job creation and further opportunity for people to have careers and live their lives as one would expect. To do that, one must have basic infrastructure. Are we to go on in this day and age with three sewers going into the river in Arklow? Is that what we want? We cannot stand over that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy made her case and I am sure the water system where she lives is functioning perfectly well, but she is lucky. She knows that the water flowing through her taps is paid for by the general Exchequer. However, there is never enough money to deal with the future requirements. The taxes she and everybody else pays go to housing, schools, hospitals and other public services but there is a gross inadequacy here which was neglected for well over 20 years and it is now time to fix it.

The contribution to be paid is a part contribution. I understand it is not easy to accept a new charge.

That is why we have taken the extra time to consider all of these matters. We will deal with them next week-----

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The Government is forcing them to accept it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----and we will put people at ease in respect of the fairness, affordability and accountability-----

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What about the PPS numbers?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----and that their money is going for investment in a system and not into some other black hole that people have been talking about around the country. We will deal with this next week. I thank Deputy Murphy for her question.

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The one point on which I will agree with the Taoiseach is that there is a legacy of underinvestment. Where money was provided to local authorities and where they built plants, there are some extremely good examples of that money being well spent and producing very good outcomes. We should acknowledge that rather than say it cannot be done at that level.

People are not confused. If anything they lack trust because there has been a series of problems. The bonus culture, the request for the PPS numbers and the cost of running the service have all featured. People have always paid. Consider, for example, the amount of money taken in development contributions. I received a reply recently to the effect that there is €717 million either in bank accounts or due to be collected in development contributions. That is frozen because of the Government deficit. Much money was collected from the cost of a house purchased or an industry opened. What is on the table for consideration? Is the Government considering scaling back the cost of running Irish Water? Is that being factored in at all? Will the service level agreements set up with the local authorities feature or will this be merely a question of what the Taoiseach considers affordable and what most people feel is the straw that will break the camel’s back?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The contributions should be as low, fair and affordable as possible and Irish Water should be seen to be accountable. The market corporation test for the consumer is how fair it is, whether they can meet it and what they get for it. Issues have been raised about management and governance, PPS numbers, call-out fees, the fact the first leak will be fixed free of charge, investment for the future and communications.

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They are paying for it already.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The regulator issued instructions some time ago that there be an 8% reduction in the cost base of Irish Water. The service level agreements are with the people who previously worked in county councils, many of whom did a wonderful job in some local authorities but not in every case. There were 34 entities. These are features of the overall decision that Government will announce next week. I agree with the principle of a contribution being made but that it be affordable, fair and people should fully understand what they get for that.

There is a major upfront capital programme of a €10 billion investment over the next few years to supply proper water for the city and the conurbations built up around it, and for the many places throughout the country where there is an inadequate system and the solutions put forward. These cannot be put in place without investment and solid engineering. The Government will announce its decisions on all of these issues next week and then we can debate it in the House for as long as people wish.

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