It is proposed to take No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services - Votes 12, 17, 25, 26, 30, 31, 32, 39 and 40, back from committee; and No. 31, Water Services Bill 2014 - Committee Stage (resumed) and Remaining Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 5.30 p.m. today and shall adjourn not later than 10 p.m., and there shall be a suspension of sitting for one hour after the Order of Business; No. 15 shall be decided without debate and all Supplementary Estimates shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and any divisions demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; and if the proceedings on Committee Stage (resumed) and Remaining Stages of the Water Services Bill 2014 do not conclude today, the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 2 p.m., there shall be no Order of Business within the meaning of Standing Order 26 and, accordingly, the business to be transacted shall be as follows: No. 31, Water Services Bill 2014 - Committee Stage (resumed) and Remaining Stages.

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposals for dealing with the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15 agreed to?

It is not agreed. I understand this matter was debated at some length by the select committee on public services recently.

The Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform.

At that meeting information was sought by my colleague, Deputy Sean Fleming. This information, relevant to these Supplementary Estimates, was to be supplied but, to date, despite it being requested again by Deputy Fleming and me via the Whips' office, we are sitting here being asked to approve the taking of the Supplementary Estimates without the information having been supplied. I put it to the Minister that it is a most unsatisfactory situation. We should not be asked to blindly accept Supplementary Estimates of this scale, in particular, without the relevant information being supplied to the Members.

I reiterate that concern in respect of the superannuation and retired allowances Supplementary Estimate Vote 12. Deputy Sean Fleming requested that information, as did I. We went so far as to object to the completion -----

It is Gerry ringing?

Sinead O'Connor.

It is probably Joan Burton on her phone.

It is a text from Sinead O'Connor.

We went so far as to suggest that we should adjourn the meeting and reconvene so that we could have access to the information. It was not forthcoming. Two things happened. We were asked to complete a process at committee not exactly blind but certainly without all the information. Now we are asked to clear not just that Estimate, but a whole set of them - Votes 12, 17, 25, 26, 30, 31, 32, 39 and 40 - many of which represent very substantial amounts of money. The biggest of them is the Health, HSE, Supplementary Estimate for €680 million.

We do not believe it is acceptable simply to rubberstamp these Estimates with no debate here in the Dáil. To make matters worse, in the case of the Estimate taken in our committee, it is without having had the information that we requested and was promised by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. He made a bit of a production around his trustworthiness and record for providing information on that occasion.

He is a great man for production.

I thank the Deputies for their comments. I should explain to those Members of the House who were not in attendance at the Select Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform. Vote 12 relates to the payment of pension entitlements to retiring civil servants. Some 1,100 have worked all their lives in the Civil Service and are entitled to their pensions. I am anxious that they are paid. The reason for the Supplementary Estimate is that there are 250 more than we estimated. However, it varies every year because we cannot predict exactly the number of civil servants who will retire. It was 1,100 this year and was 850 last year. They are entitled to be paid their pensions.

We are entitled to the information we sought.

The particular information the Deputies sought was a breakdown of each type of pensioner. It was a very reasonable request. It is being compiled from Departments because it does not exist in one spreadsheet. The assistant secretary of my Department rang Deputy Sean Fleming this morning offering a full personal briefing today on the matter and offered to give the Deputies a précis of it over the phone this morning. All the details will be given to them as soon as it comes to hand. It is simply a breakdown of who is getting what.

Nobody disputes that these are retiring civil servants who have spent their lives in the Civil Service, paying into a pension to which they are entitled. I am anxious that they are paid it before Christmas. I inquired whether I could extract this particular Vote from the rest, but I am advised that logistically it is not possible because we need to publish the appropriations Bill, which is a constitutional requirement to validate payments next week.

I ask Deputies to bear with us. All the information will be provided orally today in a full briefing to anybody who wants it. It is simply a breakdown of who is getting what. All the documentation as soon as it is compiled will be given in writing through the committee secretariat. In the meanwhile, in the old tradition of Fianna Fáil I ask that the Deputies appreciate civil servants and do not stop retired civil servants getting their pensions before Christmas.

A Leas Cheann Comhairle-----

I have to ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

No. I am sorry, Deputy. It is very clear. We have a brief discussion and-----

I do not want to engage in a discussion.

Sorry. There is no provision for response.

Old Fianna Fáil used to support this.

Is the proposal agreed to?

It is agreed.

A Leas Cheann Comhairle, please-----

Is the Deputy going to vote against the pensions?

I have to put the question.

The Minister is asking the House to approve Estimates without the information being made available to the Members

Old Fianna Fáil would have supported the pensioners.

No, I am sorry, Deputy.

What is being proposed is outrageous. We are being asked to approve something first and then the Minister will give us the information afterwards and that is not acceptable.

Is the proposal for dealing with the sitting and business of the Dáil tomorrow in the event of the Water Services Bill 2014 not concluding today agreed to?

Will there be votes tomorrow?

Yes. There will be votes tomorrow.

Is the proposal agreed? Agreed.