We use Google Analytics to see which pages are read and how the site is used, so we know what to improve. This only runs if you accept. See our privacy notice for details.

Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Irish Water charges and finances

Summary

Micheál Martin challenges the Government’s handling, cost and projected revenue of Irish Water, alleging misleading information. The Taoiseach defends the scheme as necessary to address deteriorating infrastructure, reduce costs, protect supply, and meet independent regulatory and Eurostat tests, while exchanges focus on disputed €400 charge claims.

Exactly one year ago the Government rammed through the legislation to establish Irish Water and water charges without any substantial debate. There have been massive public marches in opposition to Irish Water and numerous U-turns, the most recent of which was the Government's announcement that it wanted to bring clarity and certainty and to restore confidence where there was confusion. After the debate of the past week, people remain confused, baffled and bewildered, because the Government is making it up as it goes along. Last Wednesday evening, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and his entire project were exposed, because when one adds up the figures - the €165 million cost of the conservation grant, the cost of the metering project, at €41 million, and other administrative costs such as billing - if there is 80% compliance and 80% take-up of the grant, we are looking at a net revenue of €25 million per annum. That is after €539 million has been ploughed into the ground for meters that will never be read and €180 million has been spent on establishing Irish Water in the first instance.

The Government is desperate to do anything it can to reduce the cost of Irish Water so it can pass the famous market corporation test to remain off-balance sheet. Last night at the 11th hour, the Minister announced that the servicing and repayment of outstanding local authority loans which were to be transferred to Irish Water will instead be repaid by the Exchequer. Deputy Cowen asked about the transfer of loans last month and received a misleading reply from the Minister. Three devices have now been used to subsidise Irish Water so that it can pass this test. The first is the water conservation grant, costing €165 million, the second is the estimated €60 million for the rates attached to properties that were transferred, and the third is this €460 millions in loans. This is being done in a desperate bid to pass the test. One could not make it up. I ask the Taoiseach to go back to the drawing board and, more fundamentally, to have the confidence to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine the value for money of this project. Will the Taoiseach or the Minister correct the record of the House regarding the reply issued to Deputy Cowen on 26 November, which stated that the process of valuing the liabilities to transfer to Irish Water was ongoing?

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Sorry, Deputy; we are over time.

Comment on this

Last night, the Minister indicated that the Government changed tack in May by deciding not to transfer all local authority liabilities to Irish Water. That was misleading information, and it is another example of the Government's attempt to keep the truth from the Irish people for as long as possible. That has been the defining characteristic of how this entire project has been handled.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Martin is the person who proposed water charges.

Comment on this

No; Fine Gael proposed them in 2009.

Comment on this

Freagair an cheist.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Martin is the person who proposed a charge of €400.

Comment on this

Deputy Coveney proposed charges in 2009.

Comment on this

Four hundred euro.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

We do not need a chorus.

Comment on this

They do not remember their record beyond the last six months.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Please do not interrupt.

Comment on this

I was just making a point.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

You will not make a point by shouting over the speaker. I ask Members to stay quiet.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Martin proposed a charge for water. He proposed a flat charge of €400, with no remission.

Comment on this

No, I did not. Do not tell untruths.

Comment on this

Four hundred euro.

Comment on this

Address the issue of the misleading information being provided to the House.

Comment on this

The truth hurts.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I afforded silence for Deputy Martin and I expect the same for the Taoiseach while he replies. End of story.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

In the past few days, Deputy Cowen proposed that these charges and all costs relating to Irish Water would be paid through the Exchequer.

That means further tax increases, which Deputy Barry Cowen should explain. This matter has been assessed independently by the Commission for Energy Regulation and its assessments have been published for all to read. The Comptroller and Auditor General has always assessed the validity of financial arrangements under the statutory requirements after things have been set up.

The Deputy referred to the conservation grant. The Government estimates that it will cost €130 million, but, as is the case with all Estimates, one must cater for the reality when something happens, for example, in the case of unemployed persons, the number who are likely to be unemployed next year or the year after. If the number of unemployed rises in any year, there must be a provision to meet the extra demand. The same applies to medical cards and other matters. In the case of the conservation grant, if there is a need for a further increase in the sum, it will be provided for. This has been independently assessed for its financial viability by the energy regulator. The grant will apply like every other facility and if there is increased demand, it will be provided for.

An unprecedented amount of time has been allocated for discussion of the Bill before the House. The Bill is about reducing charges and giving certainty to people that their water supply will not be cut off and that pressure will not be reduced. It gives certainty that Irish Water will never be privatised in the years ahead and that beyond 2019 the Minister of the day will have the authority to cap water charges to make them affordable, viable and fair. These are the issues that the people wanted to be dealt with when they marched a number of weeks ago. They wanted clarity and certainty about the cost factor and affordability. All of these matters are dealt with in the Bill under discussion in the House.

There were 19 Bills, the debates on which were guillotined in 2010, nine in 2011, ten in 2012 when the troika was here, 12 in 2013 and two this year. A total of 40 hours was allocated for discussion of the Bill.

Comment on this

We have still not got the answers.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is not the same as last year.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach closed the debate down, rather than give them.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is about reducing costs, clarifying that water pressure will not be reduced and that the water supply will not be cut off, giving people certainty that Irish Water will never be privatised and that after 2019 the Minister of the day will have the authority to cap water charges to ensure they will be affordable and fair.

Comment on this

It is important that the Taoiseach answer the questions asked and address the issues raised, not duck, dive and dodge all the time. The bottom line is that in a scenario in which there is 80% compliance and 80% take-up of the conservation grant net revenue will be €25 million. Most people ask, from a common-sense perspective, why the Government would spend almost €1 billion on establishing something for the sake of €25 million in revenue.

The Taoiseach talks about going off balance sheet. The Government has allocated up to €700 million to subsidise Irish Water through the three devices I mentioned. The latest one was revealed last night at 8 p.m., after a year of debate and procrastination, and the figure amounts to €460 million. Deputy Barry Cowen asked in November about the transfer of liabilities and the reply he received was that work was still under way in preparing balance statements for each local authority for their end-2013 positions and that this would be used in determining the value of the liabilities to be transferred to Irish Water. Last night the Minister said the Government had taken a decision in May not to transfer all liabilities to Irish Water, but nobody was informed of this publicly. Even as late as one month ago, the Minister deliberately misled the Deputy in the reply he gave to the question. The Taoiseach should correct the misleading information given.

Furthermore, this information is going to EUROSTAT. All of the manoeuvres by the Government in terms of commercial rates, last night's manoeuvre of an amendment being tabled at the eleventh hour and the water conservation grant are designed to pass the market test. That is what is driving water policy. What is plan B if the test is not passed?

Comment on this

Deputy Leo Varadkar.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The reason for setting up Irish Water is to deal with the legacy that has not been attended to for 50 years.

Comment on this

Answer the question.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach should answer the questions he was asked.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Please allow the Taoiseach to reply. Deputy Micheál Martin had silence when he spoke and I expect the same for the Taoiseach.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

There is no need to go through the litany of inefficiencies in the system, the number of kilometres of pipe work that is inferior, the extent of leakages throughout the system-----

Comment on this

Change the record.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----and the fact that in 2014 there are many towns where raw sewage is being pumped into rivers, lakes and the sea.

Comment on this

I notice that the Taoiseach is not disputing my figures.

Comment on this

The Deputy never includes the non-domestic sector.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

This is not sustainable.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach is nearly there. He is running the clock down.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Last week and the previous week we were discussing climate change and Ireland meeting its targets.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach is really in trouble now.

Comment on this

It will be the man in the moon next.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

We simply must get the country right in this respect.

Comment on this

Does the Taoiseach dispute my figures?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Deputy has said he wants a €400 charge and no remission, while the person beside him-----

Comment on this

I never said that.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach is going to continue misleading the Dáil.

Comment on this

A Cheann Comhairle, the Taoiseach has said that twice.

Comment on this
Frankie Feighan Deputy Frank Feighan Fine Gael

The Deputy is not the leader yet.

Comment on this

The heave is on.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

This is Leaders' Questions.

Comment on this

I challenge the Taoiseach to show where that was ever said. I challenge him to show where any figure was mentioned.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

Comment on this

Does the Taoiseach dispute my figures?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

This is the good Deputy from Cornamona who went around Connemara telling people that it would cost them €20,000 to fix their septic tanks.

Comment on this

It is about time the Taoiseach checked out what goes on there.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach went around Roscommon saying he would keep the hospital open.

Comment on this
Frankie Feighan Deputy Frank Feighan Fine Gael

It is still open.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Taoiseach, please, finish his response?

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

That is the reason it was necessary to establish Irish Water.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach has not disputed my figures. It is extraordinary.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

This is not a circus; it is the House of Parliament. The Taoiseach should conclude, as we are way over time.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The figure required for investment in wastewater and sewerage schemes and water infrastructure has been stated on many occasions. That is the reason for the necessity to set up Irish Water and the expenditure in establishing it.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

We are five minutes over time on this question.

Comment on this

The Taoiseach has not answered the question anyway.

Comment on this
Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Government is happy that EUROSTAT's assessment which is completely independent will be met by the way Irish Water has been set up and its structure. We are happy that it will pass that test. The Commission for Energy Regulation has independently verified the validity of Irish Water.

Comment on this
Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The rules of the House apply to everybody. I call Deputy Mary Lou McDonald. I want silence, not shouting and roaring.

Comment on this