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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Austerity, banking debt and European negotiations

Summary

Gerry Adams criticised the Government’s austerity record and handling of banking and European debt, asking whether it would support a European debt conference. The Taoiseach defended the Government’s economic strategy, cited improved growth, employment and State banking returns, rejected intervening in Greece’s election, and said Ireland had secured debt reductions through negotiations.

The Taoiseach might add St. Joseph's Hospital, Ardee to that list. I have been trying to get clarity on that for the past 18 months.

Yesterday at the IMF conference the Taoiseach and his Ministers lined up to be patted on the head for the austerity targets that they have achieved but which have inflicted widespread damage to our society and our people.

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What about the damage of the bombs?

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The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, is reported as saying that the troika did not consider the effects its policies would have on the people. This begs the question: did the Government not tell the troika this? Did the Government not care about the effects it would have on our communities and people? Perhaps the Government did not see this as its responsibility. Madame Lagarde said that it was up to each individual government to decide on the mix of measures. Those in government will remember that Sinn Féin has told them as much many times.

It is also reported that the Governor of the Central Bank acknowledged that it was a mistake for the Government to recapitalise the banks. He is reported as saying that to avoid unsustainable pressure on the Sovereign, the capital should have come from an external source. Again, Sinn Féin told those in government this arís is arís.

What did the Taoiseach say? He said that for his part he would not have "defaulter" stamped on his forehead. Since then, the Taoiseach has surrendered on the issue of retrospective recapitalisation and has committed to repaying every cent of the Anglo Irish Bank debt. The conference yesterday was a disturbing reminder of how the Government has failed to deal with these crucial issues in the past and, perhaps more important, how it continues meekly to serve the interests of the elites.

Meanwhile, the Taoiseach may wish to know that there is support - it is growing rapidly - for the Greek demand for a European debt conference. Neither the Taoiseach nor his Minister for Finance has called for a debt conference. Neither the Taoiseach nor the Minister for Finance has supported that call. Why not? Will the Taoiseach now rectify that situation? Will the Taoiseach now support the call for a European debt conference, which is so clearly in the interests of this State and all our citizens?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

First, I was not at the IMF conference yesterday. Deputy Adams's intelligence sources are slightly off.

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Then the Taoiseach got his pat somewhere else.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

When the troika took over the country after the Government removed itself from the press conference centre some years ago, the main Opposition party said that nothing could be changed from the programme that the troika had set out.

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Did that include Sinn Féin?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

This Government made arrangements to face up to the challenge with the people. It did so by building a programme which, through the tax system, would allow for jobs to be created and sustained and for our economy to grow. The challenge was accepted and, as was pointed out at the conference yesterday, the real winners and heroes of that challenge are the people.

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They are the real losers.

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That is astonishing condescension.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Adams made a point about what he told everyone years ago. He said that those in Europe should go and get stuffed and take back their money with them as well. Deputy Adams said that we had surrendered - an unusual term - the possibility of retrospective payout in respect of the decision made on 20 June 2012. For the information of Deputy Adams, the Minister for Finance has made it perfectly clear that the Government is examining all the options to determine the best option and to get the best result for the taxpayer. This Government did not put any money into Anglo Irish Bank. The previous Administration did, and that is dead money.

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It did. What about the promissory note?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

What we have tried to do and what we are trying to do is make choices in the best interests of the taxpayer to recover all the money that has been paid into the banks by this Government since it came to office. Deputy Adams will be aware that the State has earned returns of €10 billion from the banking sector. A total of €5.4 billion in income has come from the guarantees, fees and capital investment, while €5 billion has come from the sale of investments in Bank of Ireland preference shares and the sale of Irish Life. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has carried out an examination on the potential in respect of receipt of income back to the taxpayer from AIB. As Deputy Adams is aware, from a process of interested competent people, Goldman Sachs, on a pro bono basis, is carrying out that initial survey.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The State's holding in AIB, Bank of Ireland and Permanent tsb is currently valued at €15 billion. That valuation can be broken down as follows: €13.3 billion in AIB, Bank of Ireland equity stands at €1.4 billion and Permanent tsb at €400 million. Therefore, it is not true to say that the Government has abandoned the decision of 20 June 2012.

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It rolled over.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Government will decide on the best choice to make in respect of getting back the most money for the taxpayer. That is the main interest of this Government, unlike its predecessor.

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I note the Taoiseach has studiously avoided answering my question, which was very simple and straightforward. I will repeat it so that the Taoiseach will get an understanding of it. Will the Taoiseach now support the call for a European debt conference, which is so clearly in the interests of this State and all our citizens? That is what I asked the Taoiseach.

Once again, the Taoiseach attributed a remark to me that I did not make. The Taoiseach has simply refused to negotiate with our European partners. Every time the Taoiseach went there, he prefaced his visit by saying that we will not default. He tugged the forelock. He said we will not have "defaulter" stamped on our foreheads. This was totally contrary to the declarations of "Not an inch", "Frankfurt's way or Labour's way" and "Not a red cent to the banks".

Taxpayers' money has been put into these bad banks and the so-called debt, but it is not debt, it is greedy speculators, financiers and some politicians who created the situation. The Government has amalgamated this private debt with sovereign debt. Now, we have the Commissioner saying this and we have the Minister claiming that the troika did not take account or consideration of how this would affect the people here.

Once again, we have to wait until the Greek people vote. We should not have to wait until the outcome of an election in another state for the Taoiseach to stand up for the interests of the people or indeed for working people throughout the European Union. Regardless of what government Greek citizens elect, the Taoiseach needs to put a debt conference on the agenda of the European Union.

Obviously, the Taoiseach is not blind to the effects, the impact or the social inequality which the Government's policies have inflicted on communities, families and citizens nor to how our social protections have been destroyed. A European debt conference opens up a very real prospect of this State's debt being significantly reduced. It would free up money for health and other public services as well as stimulus for the economy. It is a straight question for the Taoiseach. Will he support, call for or endorse the call for a European debt conference?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

No.

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No. Will the Taoiseach explain why?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is not for Ireland to interfere in the issues that are raised in the context of a general election in another country.

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These are issues here.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Gabh mo leithscéal.

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These are issues here.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Is that a sound of reception or what do I hear?

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That was the sound of despair. I had hoped that the Taoiseach would make some sense - stupidly.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The point is, Deputy Adams, that Ireland's position is very different than Greece-----

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What about the Taoiseach's remarks regarding Prime Minister Cameron?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Sorry, Deputy, please.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The point we have arrived at now, because of negotiations between the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the troika, is that Ireland is in a very different place than Greece.

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We were always in a different place - that is a matter of geography.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

While we respect the challenges that face the Greek people in the time ahead, with 25% unemployment, it is their decision who to elect in the forthcoming election. Ireland is now in a position where our capacity to borrow is at unprecedentedly low levels and our growth rate is the fastest in western Europe. That does not mean that the Government is by any means happy, despite the fact that unemployment has fallen for 30 months in a row. We must continue providing stability because stability brings investment, confidence and jobs. The answer to the problems of unemployment, recession, disillusionment and despair is to have an economy that is functioning strongly and where jobs can be created-----

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And a government that stands up for its people.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

In the context of Greece, Ireland is in a very different position.

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They have much less emigration than we have. They have half of our emigration levels.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

We now have a strategy and a plan that has been proven to work and that will continue to work in the time ahead. We want to see the country in three to five years' time with an economy that is strong and powering ahead and where jobs can be created for our people.

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What about the debt?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Finally, Deputy Adams is wrong again in that the Government here was well able to negotiate with our European colleagues in respect of reducing the level of debt imposed upon us because of the catastrophe arising from the banking debacle. We have had evidence of what happened there from the recent comments coming from the banking inquiry.

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Those comments are incorrect.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Of course, Deputy Adams has always put forward the view that everything is positive and rosy from a Sinn Féin perspective. Did I hear somebody say today that Sinn Féin is now a party to removing 20,000 public servants from work in Northern Ireland over the period ahead?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Thank you Deputies. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan please.

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