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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

Water-charge bill and registration figures

Summary

Paul Murphy attacks the Government’s handling of water charges, urging non-payment and a vote to abolish them. He questions the delayed legislation, possible court enforcement and inconsistent Irish Water registration figures; the Taoiseach says the Bill will follow Cabinet consideration after Easter and defends the charging system.

Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall and that is the situation facing the Government. It is in that moment between pride and a fall. Faced with a huge protest on Saturday and the prospect of a massive boycott, all talk of listening has been forgotten and replaced by a high-handed, arrogant and bullying approach. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, is swaggering around the place like Nelson in "The Simpsons", threatening to rob people's lunch money. Housing agencies are sending threatening letters to their tenants and we have yet another deadline - a fifth - from Irish Water, taking all meaning from the word "deadline", which is designed to frighten people. Despite what Irish Water states, it is not happy with the level of registration. We face an incredible situation, weeks before the bills are issued, where the Government is threatening that Irish Water will be able to deduct charges from people's wages, benefits or pensions. It is not doing this by putting a Bill before the House or raising the matter for debate here. It is not even going on the airwaves to put forward and debate the issue. It is doing it through leaks in the media that are designed to strike fear into people across the country. Is this the new way of doing politics? Is this the democratic revolution sitting on an overburdened shelf of forgotten promises?

People deserve clarity, not more waffle. I, therefore, ask the Taoiseach to answer these questions clearly. When will we see the long promised Bill? Will the Taoiseach confirm that the water charges are not a Revenue tax and that, therefore, the powers of Revenue to deduct charges do not apply? Will he confirm that any move to give Irish Water these powers would mean Irish Water falling foul of the EUROSTAT market corporation test? If there is any move to have a fast-tracked court procedure which would require one court case rather than a multiple of cases to obtain an attachment of earnings order, will it not similarly have to apply to other utility companies? How on earth will the Government deal with the hundreds of thousands who will refuse to pay? How many hundreds of new judges will the State appoint? How many scores of new courthouses will the State build or will the entire system simply be blocked up?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputy is out of time.

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I will finish on this point. Was Elizabeth Arnett of Irish Water not correct when she said this morning that there would be no penalties in the case of the first four bills? People can, therefore, refuse to pay, without penalty until after the next general election. They can join the group that will bin their bills outside the Dáil on 18 April. This campaign will sink water charges, Irish Water and the Government.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will bring his proposals to the Cabinet in the next few weeks. The Cabinet will consider and make decisions on them. The Bill will then be published and put through the Dáil and the Seanad. It will deal with the questions the Deputy has raised.

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The Government has made a hames of it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is not good for Deputy Paul Murphy or anybody else here to express a view that would put people in a position where they would build up a debt for the future. The Government has listened carefully to what the people have said and introduced a level of charge for water that it believes is fair and affordable. It is not good to tell people to put this off and build up a debt as a consequence. There is a need for fairness in this issue, of which the Deputy does not seem to be aware. The majority of people who have signed up as customers of Irish Water and will continue to sign up want to know that their neighbours, including the Deputy, will make their contribution to the cost of production of quality Irish water in the coming years. The Deputy's questions about courts and other matters will be dealt with in the Bill that will be produced by the Government following its decision on the Minister's propositions. There is a need for compliance and people to understand there will be equality in regard to compliance and that everybody who can pay should and will pay.

The Bill will be before the House within weeks and people will have an opportunity to discuss and debate it. We have gone beyond ignoring the issue. The country must deal with it and I am heartened by the continuing strong support through registration and people signing up to receive what they know is a precious commodity which we must be able to supply to every citizen, not just those in particular locations. The Bill will be introduced in a few weeks time.

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The Taoiseach says the promised Bill will be introduced in the next few weeks. On 3 February he told us it would be published "in the next couple of weeks". The next time we raise the issue will we be told that it will be introduced in the next couple of months and then the next few months? This is a Bill that never appears because the Government wants to use it to scare people, but the content will not be as scary. If it includes a procedure to fast-track proceedings for non-payers of water charges through the courts, does the Taoiseach agree that there are many others in the State who should be ahead of non-payers in the queue to access the courts such as serious criminals and those who were responsible for the economic crisis, for which people are paying through water charges?

On the statement that the majority are signing up to pay water charges, I notice that the Taoiseach did not give figures. The figures coming from the Government-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy, please, put his question? He has one minute in which to do so.

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How many have signed up? The only consistent message we hear is that lots of people have signed up. On Monday morning the Minister told us that 1.23 million had signed up, an increase of 130,000 in the past four weeks. Last night we heard the figure of 1.23 million, which was an increase of 120,000 in the past seven weeks. The Government's motion refers to a figure of 1.237 million households having responded, but we have a response from Irish Water from a month ago which refers to a figure of 1.23 million.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

This is Question Time. Will the Deputy, please, put his question?

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What are the accurate figures? My final supplementary question is-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Does the Deputy understand he has one minute for a supplementary question?

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I do. I also understand-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

He is now on two minutes exactly. Please put your question, Deputy, because this is not statements.

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I will put my question. What consolation prize is the Taoiseach going to give the Labour Party for enthusiastically hammering the final nails in its coffin? Will the party take the chance? Will the Taoiseach take the chance of voting for the Private Members' motion by the anti-austerity alliance tonight to abolish water charges?

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Give us the real figures now.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

In reply to an earlier question from Deputy Murphy, I expect that Irish Water will pass the market corporation test. It is a matter for an independent analysis by EUROSTAT. The Bill will be published very shortly after Easter. In respect of the Deputy's last comment, this is a Government comprised of Fine Gael and the Labour Party which was given a mandate by the people to deal with the most difficult economic situation our country has ever had. For that reason the Government has faced many difficult choices and has made decisions. As the Deputy will understand, commentators are entitled to commentate but politics is about people and government is about making decisions. I am not sure that Deputy Murphy has arrived at that point yet. If it ever comes his way, in whatever form, he will find he is living in a very different space than now.

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