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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

IBRC allegations and parliamentary privilege

Summary

Micheál Martin criticises the Taoiseach’s silence after Catherine Murphy’s IBRC allegations were suppressed by an injunction, defending parliamentary privilege and media reporting. The Taoiseach says he could not comment while court proceedings were pending, but affirms that constitutional privilege remains absolute and must be used responsibly; the exchange becomes increasingly political and disorderly.

Last Thursday week, 29 May, Deputy Catherine Murphy gave the background to her reasons for believing an independent commission of inquiry should be established relating to transactions in IBRC since 2009. Deputy Murphy had sources, which she believed were reliable and robust, who told her that very low interest rates had been given to Mr. O'Brien. Within minutes of this being reported, the shutters came down on almost all media outlets, preventing them from reporting what Deputy Murphy had said even though it was something which was in the public interest and was covered by absolute privilege under Article 15 of the Constitution. The national broadcaster was silenced, as was TV3, the radio stations and most of the newsprint outlets. Not all were silenced because Broadsheet.ie and The Sunday Times printed the material, but others were effectively silenced by threats and intimidatory action to the effect that this material was the subject of a court injunction.

The Taoiseach was also silent. For the entire five-day period in which the media were silent, he was silent too. He did not criticise the media blackout or defend the right of a Member of this House to raise issues of public interest. She was called a "liar" and a "thief" during the public debate that ensued. The Taoiseach went into hiding and many people across the country could not understand why the Taoiseach of the country would not come forward to support Dáil privilege, unequivocally and in public.

Is it because Mr. Denis O'Brien was leading the legal challenge that he remained silent? Does the Taoiseach think Mr. O'Brien was right to do what he did, which is effectively to threaten legal action on media outlets to prevent them reporting what is said in this House? Is the Taoiseach scared of this individual? Was he afraid to confront the issue and the person? Why was he willing to remain silent and indifferent to attempts to stifle legitimate debate, to limit reporting of Dáil proceedings and not to respond to personal attacks against Dáil Deputies?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I had five public engagements on the Friday and the same on the Saturday and Sunday in other locations. The request made of me was to recall the Dáil. An injunction was granted by the High Court. A case was before the High Court. This House could have met on the Sunday, Monday and Tuesday and talked itself around in circles. It had no authority and no function in interfering with the court case. Had I made any comment, either side could have used those comments in the intervening period until the judge clarified the intent of the injunction he gave. I was very happy to see the judge clarify exactly that the rights and privileges of elected Members of this House were vindicated, as protected under the Constitution. For that reason, it was not appropriate to have the House recalled. In fact, if anything were to be recalled, it would be the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, because if Members of the House wish to apply sanctions to other Members, they do so internally. While the privilege is constitutional, it is not unlimited and people who do make statements in the House have a responsibility to exercise that privilege in a proper and appropriate fashion. For that reason this House had no function attempting to direct or influence in any way a Justice of the High Court, who clarified, beyond yea or nay, that Members of this House have constitutional protection for what they say here, and they have a duty to use that privilege responsibly.

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I believe Deputy Murphy used that privilege responsibly. Judging from the Taoiseach's remarks, he does not. He seems to be siding with Mr. O'Brien on that argument. I did not ask the Taoiseach about the recalling of the Dáil. I asked him why he remained silent on fundamental principles that go to the heart of a functioning parliamentary democracy, namely, the right of media to report on utterances made in this House, and the right of Dáil Deputies to raise issues of legitimate public interest without being pilloried and called a liar and a thief. It is extremely sad that the Taoiseach could not at that time, as the leader of the country, come out publicly and say what was fundamentally correct and proper. For example, in the last few days, we have been treated to the Taoiseach's views on subjects as diverse as Sepp Blatter and bottle banks. With the greatest of respect, people are getting very fed up of this shallow, superficial politics.

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Look in the mirror.

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I put it to the Taoiseach-----

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Look in the mirror.

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I can remember four years ago when the Moriarty tribunal published its report. The Taoiseach ducked and dived on that occasion before he had to come in here and belatedly accept its findings. I do not know what it is.

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A Deputy

Ask Averil Power.

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The silence over the last week was unacceptable and unedifying. The Taoiseach's response to my question today was extraordinary. We did not need the judge to tell us we had absolute privilege under Article 15. It is extraordinary that the Taoiseach would come in and say that. The idea that both sides would use his arguments, somehow, in the ensuing court case, is bogus. He was opening hotels and pubs and doing whatever else on that Friday, while the rest of the country was debating this issue. The Taoiseach was deliberately absent, because when he wants to speak about something - whether it is a bottle bank, the launch of a football match, or whatever - he is there to do it. It is unacceptable that he remained so silent on an issue so fundamental to our parliamentary democracy. It was an absence of leadership on the Taoiseach's part.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It is not for Deputy Martin to put words in my mouth. He leads a party that was described in the past as being "slightly constitutional".

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See what it says about the Taoiseach's party.

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A Deputy

A leader with no followers.

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A leader with no followers.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Besides opening the facility for hygiene and all the rest of it, the Deputy forgot to mention I also launched the national carers' strategy week and the absorption into Irish Rural Link of the structure for meals on wheels services around the country. These are matters that are as relevant to Deputy Martin as to anybody else.

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The Taoiseach cut the respite care.

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What about meals and deals?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

If he thinks it is appropriate that these things not be commented on, then fair enough. It ill-behoves Deputy Martin to come in here speaking about leadership, because he did not do anything to further the cause of those who sought equality in marriage over the last month. In fact, the Yes Equality people-----

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How did we make this jump?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----had to put up the Fianna Fáil posters down the west while his party-----

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The Taoiseach is the man who wanted to abolish the Seanad.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----sneered and jeered at a Senator who was explaining the importance and the value of that vote.

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I am the only party leader who debated the issue on the public airwaves. The Taoiseach did not. He refused to debate that too. He refused to go on the airwaves to debate.

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When the Taoiseach is in a hole, he should stop digging.

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Does the Taoiseach remember the time he pushed Ursula Halligan out of the way?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The Constitution is very clear about the privilege of Members elected to this House. It is unequivocal in its statement, which cannot be changed except by a referendum of the people. It was not for me to comment on the outcome of a court case-----

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There was no court case-----

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----in which a Justice of the High Court was about to issue his clarification, which he did. In keeping with my views on this for many years, the judge clearly vindicated the rights of public representatives in this House and that what they say is under privilege-----

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The Taoiseach did nothing to uphold it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----and that privilege should be used with responsibility. Deputy Martin's comments are not relevant. The situation that anybody could have taken comments from the Taoiseach about a court case pending either way-----

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It was about a Dáil procedure, not about a court case.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It was very clear that the Constitution was not changed and cannot be changed except by the will of the people and by a vote of the people.

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Why did the Taoiseach not come out and articulate that? Why did he not say that?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

The right of every Member in this House, irrespective of who they represent, is clear in that Constitution.

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If it were anyone other than Denis O'Brien, he would have said it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

It does not behove the Deputy to come in with that kind of comment here.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I call Deputy Adams.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

The Deputy cannot talk.

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Míle buíochas, a Cheann Comhairle-----

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I do not think any of you were at the Moriarty Tribunal.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Would Deputy Durkan please take his seat?

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

I apologise.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputy is on his feet. Please show him some respect.

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