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Dáil
‹ Leaders' Questions

ECB pressure on Greece

Summary

Deputy Paul Murphy condemns the ECB and European leaders for allegedly using financial pressure to force Greece to accept further austerity, calling for respect for a possible “No” vote. The Taoiseach rejects claims that Greece is being threatened with expulsion from the eurozone, notes there is no mechanism for forced exit, and stresses Greece’s debt arrears and need for reform.

In "The Godfather Part III", Don Lucchesi turns to Vincent Mancini and says:

Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger.

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It is movie night.

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This is real politics.

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The gun of the European Central Bank is directly pointed at the Greek economy and society. It is being used to demand the ransom of a "Yes" vote on Sunday for more austerity. The Taoiseach was concerned about the queues at the ATMs but he did not care about the queues at the soup kitchens and food banks. Those queues are a result of the decision by the European Central Bank, which was called for by the Minister for Finance.

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That is not what happened.

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They are a result of the decision not to provide further assistance to the Greek banking system. They are a part of the campaign of financial terror that the European establishment is pursuing against the Greek people. Two days ago, the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, made an incredible speech which was full of lies about the deal on the table for the Greeks and which threatened the Greeks with being forced to exit the euro if they did not vote "Yes". Mr. Juncker said something which I think will resonate with many people in Ireland who voted twice on past European referendums when he told the Greeks that they had to vote "Yes" whatever question was put to them. That is European democracy. We can have as many referendums and choices as we want but we can only say "Yes" to austerity. We cannot say "No" to it.

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What is the question?

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Yesterday the President of the European Parliament and Angela Merkel made the same intervention. The reason they are so scared of democracy is because austerity has failed to achieve its stated aims of restoring growth and reducing debt. It has shrunk the Greek economy by one quarter and ballooned its debt to 180% of GDP. The IMF admits that the deal put on the table on a take-it-or-leave-it basis would have resulted in unsustainable debt, even with economic growth of 4%. Austerity has no popular legitimacy because it has exposed what happened to the money that went to Greece. Less than 10% of the money went into the Greek economy, with the rest going to bail out the banking system, the German and French banks and the major bondholders. That is the real purpose of austerity. The hope is that the tyranny of the troika, the financial terrorism of the ECB and the bullying by Europe's leaders will force people to vote "Yes". The Irish Government's role in this mob story is that of Fredo Corleone, meekly doing what it is told to do and enthusiastically allowing itself to be used as a stick to beat the Greek people. Does the Taoiseach agree that the bullying and the threats should stop and that the Greek people should be free to make their decision on Sunday about the austerity deal? Will he withdraw the threats he repeated today about kicking them out of the eurozone if they make the wrong decision?

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Is the movie over?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Perhaps the Deputy is rehearsing the speech he will be making in Athens on Friday. I wish him luck in his travels.

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Perhaps the Taoiseach could go to Greece to show solidarity.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I am glad the Deputy is following through on his convictions. I listened very carefully to what Prime Minister Tsipras said at the European Union leaders' meeting. He said that his country does not want to leave the euro and it will pay its way rather than default. He said he has to deal with corruption, infrastructure deficiencies and changing structures to make his country work, and that he needed our help. Mr. Draghi has given €87 billion in emergency liquidity to the Greek banks. Other countries, through their taxpayers, have contributed significantly to Greece and, believe me, they want to see Greece work as a democracy in order that its citizens can live the life they should expect in the European community.

However, that requires people to sit down and deal with the challenges they face. As the Greek Prime Minister said, he went to the OECD and met its personnel who were able to give him the best advice, technical and otherwise, to put in place the structures that he said were necessary for Greece to make its way forward. Believe me, there is a willingness not just to listen and respond with words but also to respond with assistance to put in place those structures to allow Greece to function as a democracy that can make its way forward, pay its way and deal over a longer period with these problems. That was accepted by the European leaders in hearing it directly from the Prime Minister, but that is not what came back from Athens later. I do not have the reasons the Greek negotiators were withdrawn, but I do know that papers are now being exchanged. The Greek Finance Minister, Mr. Varoufakis, has been talking, as have other members of the Greek Government, about whether the referendum will be held. I hope some progress can be made in the conference call which will take place today at 4.30 p.m. between the eurozone Ministers, as everybody wants to see this work. Nobody wants to have a situation where this will spiral downwards from what is beginning to happen in Greece. From our point of view, we will work with our Greek colleagues in any way we can to bring them back from the precipice. Greece is the first developed country to be in this position of arrears.

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If the Taoiseach wants to respect and help his Greek colleagues and if his words of sympathy and solidarity with the Greek people mean anything, he should withdraw the threats. He should be the leader of a European country that says, "We do not believe that if the Greek people vote "No", they should be forced out of the eurozone, if that is not their wish." I believe all this talk about the Taoiseach and other European leaders being interested in negotiations is not in good faith. What happened at the negotiations? A deal was put on the table on a take-it-or-leave-it basis in the knowledge that Syriza as a whole would not be able to take it. Yesterday Mr. Paul Krugman wrote that it was, deliberately, an offer Syriza could not accept because at the same time it was negotiating with the leaders of New Democracy and Potami, The River. What the European leaders wanted was a silent coup in Greece to replace the government with something more acceptable. When a referendum was announced, however, all of a sudden they were in favour of entering negotiations again. They even raised the question of debt relief, which had been off the table. Mr. Tsipras wrote to the Taoiseach and others, saying, "Okay, let us postpone the ending of the second programme until after the referendum so that we can have negotiations." However, everyone said "No". Mr. Tsipras wrote yesterday and again today, saying he wanted a third programme. However, Chancellor Merkel replied, "No, we will not have negotiations until after the referendum." That is because they want Syriza to be defeated in the referendum to get rid of the problematic issue of democracy and replace it with a government that will do exactly what they want.

The role of the Irish Government in all of this has been absolutely shameful. It is being used as a stick with which to beat the people of Greece and Ireland and it does so consciously against the interests of people here. It is shameful that today the Ballyhea bondholder bailout protestors are in Brussels making a case for a debt write-down for the Irish people. Meanwhile, the Taoiseach is saying nobody needs a debt write-down, that everyone should pay their debts, unless they are among the richest people in the country.

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Michael P. Kitt An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Fianna Fáil

A question, please.

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Shame on the Taoiseach. Where is the June 2012 agreement? It has been completely forgotten. The Greek people should not be bullied. The Irish Government does not speak for the people here.

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Does the Deputy?

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The Deputy is arrogant.

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We, too, say "Oxi" or "No" to the troika's tyranny and austerity. We stand alongside the Greek people in a fight for a Europe that will work in the interests of millions, not millionaires.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I am interested in the Deputy's analysis that there is a threat to drive Greece out of the eurozone.

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That is what the Taoiseach said.

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The Taoiseach said it.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Deputy Paul Murphy understands there is no mechanism to exit the eurozone, that a country would have to request to leave. Therefore, his analysis that there is a threat from this country or anybody else is absolutely baseless. The position is that Greece is in arrears in meeting its debts to the IMF. There is, obviously, a serious problem that is affecting millions of people in that country. As the Deputy has often asked here, why have others tell us what to do? The Greek Prime Minister is saying, "I recognise that you have a problem. I recognise that we have to deal with corruption, restructuring the way we do business, having an incentive and an infrastructural platform to develop the country but we need help to do this." He has pointed to how this can happen. The exposure of other taxpayers in other countries is enormous in some cases.

It is fine for Deputy Paul Murphy to say, "Withdraw your threat," but there is no threat to force anybody out of the eurozone. The Deputy talks about democracy here, but it is the same for other European leaders who say, "I cannot get a motion through my parliament to extend the bailout programme. I will not get it through because I am being held in position by two or three parties." That is democracy and that consent is required. In fact, some parliaments would have to ratify whatever agreement might be reached.

On Saturday the intention was that there would be a meeting of eurozone Ministers to negotiate for whatever length of time with their Greek counterparts, to agree a deal, have it put through the Greek Parliament and endorsed by the Finnish, Dutch and German Parliaments. They would then be able to proceed for the next six months with a finance programme to meet Greece's needs, meet its repayments and allow the country to start the work the Prime Minister, Mr. Tsipras, himself said was required. I hope we can get back to that position during the conference call at 4.30 p.m. Nobody wants to see us spiralling backwards and downwards. There is a responsibility on everybody to make it work. From the institutional end and the point of view of political leaders in the eurozone, we are willing to work and engage with our Greek colleagues to make it happen. There is a way through this, but it requires two to be at the table.

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